Should Video Games Adhere to International Humanitarian Law?

Honestly I can see where they are coming from, but there comes a point where you have to draw the line as this is grabbing at strings. There are so many other issues in the world, me sniping someone online isn't going to make the economy any worse.

Should Video Games Adhere to International Humanitarian Law? No!

Digital Napalm doesn't stick to children, so i'd say no.

So the other day I was playing laser tag. You would be shocked, SHOCKED, at how many violations of IHL were being committed. Nobody was adhering to law. So here I was trying to be a good soldier and not shoot anyone with a beam of light that had not shot at me first and what do I get in return? Everyone shot me! I was dead before I had the chance to even play.

Video games are just like this but so much worse. In the video game version this we have left billions of non-existent virtual families parent-less! Think of the atrocities committed upon fake families everywhere.

I weep. Because what is essentially virtual laser tag has been so cruel to what is essentially no one.

This is unbelievably asinine. International Humaitarian Law covers real humans, and considering the "casualties" aren't actually real, there is no story here.

There are not "...600 million gamers who may be virtually violating IHL..."

There are "600 million gamers who may be violating the VIRTUAL IHL", except for the fact that it does not exist.

So maybe the virtual ICRC should take this up with whatever virtual entities actually care.

Garbage.

Just more people who need to validate their existence by making more rules, and putting their nose's into other people's business.

@Yacob521 That is one thing that I've noticed with all the games I've played. If there are children in the game, they can't be attacked, but most of the time there just arn't any children.

All's fair in love & war.

Well in MW friendly fire isn't tolerated...LOL

@Shakousha, there is a stage in MW@ called "No Russian", in it you get to gun down hundreds of unarmed civilians, including a woman pushing a stroller....

Obviously video games should not be subject to international human rights laws… but someone should take a look at how killing thousands of people in a very realistic vivid simulation affects the psyche.

"the committee acknowledged it is interested in working with game developers to promote a better understanding of international law in their games."

As long as there is no censorship or forced participation involved, I am all for it.

We have become a particularly bloodthirsty society. And we are judged by how our soldiers conduct themselves on the battlefield.

As a veteran, I am concerned when I hear comments that we should be treating our enemies as they treat us: Tortured and murdered without conscience.

Humanity has come a long way in the past 100 years in the way we conduct ourselves in wartime. I would hate to see us regress to the carnage of WWI and WWII.

To an extent i agree.

First off, I don't think anything should govern whether something CAN be done (One of the purposes in games is being able to do things we could/would never do in real life).

That being said, I do think there should be something in every game that gives a rough indication of right and wrong (ie Fallout's karma system without the bugs). For those who are not familiar with the game series fallout, the karma system gives you good karma for helping people and performing good actions. It also gives you bad karma for certain methods/ways of killing. Case in point, walking up to some random person and blowing their brains out, excessively tortuously killing someone, or killing prisoners = Bad karma. Combat kills, or killing people in self defense, while not giving any karma bonus, does not penalize. Killing someone to preserve the lives of the innocent = good karma (i know there are going to be some debate over this one). It also often gave you extra karma boosts if you managed to settle encounters non-violently.

Even though these games are officially rated for only 18+, lets face it, children still play these games. I certainly did when i was their age.

While the fine points of good and bad of killing are open to debate, there should be at least some basic system in place to emphasize that universally bad actions are just that.

I don't condone or condemn playing "evil" characters in a game universe. However there should be a system in place in character development so the person playing is well aware that the actions they are performing are wrong. This type of system would not be intended to penalize an evil character or restrict gameplay freedom in any way. It would simply act as an indicator so the lesser intelligent of the species who may not realize that the actions are inappropriate.

and a direct comment on the content of the article. The geneva convention does not dictate if/who/when you can tie up. beating them savagely after they are tied up is looked down on. Killing them tied up is definitely a no no.

This is just a one of my personal morals in gaming..

Good Karma:

Shooting a psychopathic rapist who opens fire on you as you try to rescue the children he has abducted.

Bad karma (although i grudgingly admit i found more gratifying, it should still be flagged as wrong):

Rescuing the kids and then sneaking up to the same psycho ,dropping a hand grenade down his pants, and running.

Here is some Geneva Convention trivia:

1. Is it permissible for a soldier to wear the uniform of the enemy to pose as enemy soldier?

2. Is it permissible for a soldier to pose as a civilian?

3. Is it permissible to shoot at an enemy pilot who ejected from his aircraft while he is descending in his parachute?

4. Is it permissible to shoot at an enemy paratrooper while he is descending in his parachute?

Answers forthcoming…

Next their going to abide by speed limit laws in Need for speed and gta. Sorry sir you can't steal a virtual car because it might hurt that virtual person's virtual feelings. What you gana send me to virtual court where i'll get a virtual life sentence for the death of millions of virtual people. Good luck with that bud

As much it is engineering, science and structure in making a game, I believe it originates and ends from an artist point of view. The rules of the game are created by the inventor or inventors.

Besides, an occasional rogue solder is reality too.
Kill'em, Kill'em ALL! ARG!

I take out all my stress on a game and at the end of the game, zero harm done, then end. ;)

You gotta be kidding me...

There should also be something in war games that indicate when the player violates the rules of engagement of the military it is portraying.

Once again though, it should only be an indicator (like a tool tip or a red screen flash), and make no attempts to stop them. However in the interests of realism, the character should incur the wrath of hell from their CO when they get back to base! This type of system i believe would benefit the game as it would add to the depth and realism.

I agree with Grunt in the extent that people want to experience alternate routes (such as the rogue soldier) in games. Its one of their key redeeming qualities.

In the interest of freedom of environment, the person should be able to roll through the mission killing each and everything that moves (including their squad mates) if they want to. However they would likely have a cut-scene after showing your characters court martial and subsequent execution or committal to a mental hospital.

So if someone designs a war game that takes place not in our society the people of this virtual land should be subjected to our world rules? ----I don't think so

That's silly. Video games are for fun. They are not meant to be taken literally. Some can mess with peoples minds thoug. Playing as a terrorist and shooting a ton of people in an airport is an example. I can see this getting stuck in someone's mind for a long time and affect their guilt factor. I can see a humantarian would want to fix that, but I cannot see why they would feel bad about virtual terrorists being killed, counter terrorists, or the other team, etc.

to answer the question: YES IT SHOULD !IF! we cant distinguish games from reality apart...
otherway games arent worth that any good action tv show... ^^

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bored? lets go mine the stars... ^^

That's preposterous!

Let me put this simply... ITS A GAME! NO REAL PEOPLE WERE HARMED DURING THE PLAYING OF THIS GAME!

Seriously, the Red Cross has better things to do other than discussing the violent content of FPS. Lets name a couple... Syria is MURDERING their civilians in the streets of their country... There are human right violations being committed on DAILY if not HOURLY basis in portions of Africa! This is the best talking point it can come up with? SERIOUSLY?!?

Should we also apply domestic violence laws to the SIMS?

There are REAL issues in this world; more than enough to garner the attention of ALL of us... Lets not get distracted by the trivial.

Is this a joke waiting for the next artile that says PSYCH!!

@Aldrons Last Hope

And before you even start playing the game, you're asked if you are okay with the questionable and disturbing content... I should also mention that during that mission, you're part of a group of ultra-nationalists that have little to no interest in Human rights let alone international law... So, what's your point?

Children who smash Ken and Barbie dolls together in crude simulations of love-making should be persecuted for simulated rape and physical abuse.

by the number of comments on this thread we all can see that the public is not happy...

^^

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bored? lets go mine the stars... ^^

I could understand if someone was making a "Tactical Military Simulator" that was supposed to be as realisticly accurate as possible. Then the would WANT to adhere to those laws for the "Accuracy" of it. But 90% of video games are just mindless fun entertainmentm, and yes even the puzzle game are mindless fun when you think about it.

Its an entertainment medium and therefore should be subject to the same freedrom and expression rules we apply to other forms of entertainment such as BOOKS, ART, MAGAZINES, ETC. Implementing arbitrary requirements simply because the media delivry system is "Interactive" demonstrates both a lack of understanding and forethought. It's also akin to censorship by proxy.

Ever wonder what would happen if you proposed something totally idiotic just for kicks to see if you could get a bunch of morons to debate its validity? Well now we know....

@mordrud

I guess you should count yourself in that number of morons... Stand and be counted, you participated.

Always happy to be counted among my fellow morons...but the whole notion is still idiotic.

I wanna double cheeseburger with everything on it and some firegrilled brats boiled in beer. I'm hungry. Thirsty too. I should get a beer to go with my burger, beer n' bratwurst. Anybody else think Miller Lite is underrated?

Apparently the Red Cross doesn't play video games, especially first person shooters, because they have no idea what they're talking about. I understand where they're coming from, but they are clueless. I've been a gamer for the past 20 years, and I'm going to end it here, because I could write a 50 page report, but won't bother since this is so stupid.

The title is misleading. Read the article before you post. The red cross wants to work with developers to make their games more accurate. They are not suggesting that virtual war crimes should be banned or prosecuted. They simply want to raise awareness.

The answers:

1. Is it permissible for a soldier to wear the uniform of the enemy to pose as enemy soldier?

Yes, as long as the soldier does not engage the enemy in combat.

2. Is it permissible for a soldier to pose as a civilian?

Yes, as long as the soldier does not engage the enemy in combat.

3. Is it permissible to shoot at an enemy pilot who ejected from his aircraft while he is descending in his parachute?

No, unless the pilot is shooting at you.

4. Is it permissible to shoot at an enemy paratrooper while he is descending in his parachute?

Yes.

Google LOAC for more information.

So I'm playing GTA and just got done excessively clubbing this prostitute with a golf club to get my cash back after our :ahem: transaction, then I read this article...

I better get a few more whacks in

All this is is old school adults losing control on our new school world. Once all these old farts fade off into the distant the world will be a better place...I am dead serious man the old world thinking has to go!! its freaking 2011 " THE TIMES THEY ARE A CHANGEN"

@Delkomatic you should listen to those old school people, they'd be able to teach you some things. like respect, wisdom and how not to be a bloody immature twat.

personally I hated that level in MW2 where your basically on a murder spree. it's downright homicidal and personally i don't think it should have been implemented any more than what it already has been. that being said i can understand how it got past the censors with only an M rating, it's a fictional story, i don't know about the quality of the story but it's one none the less.

I think that implementing The humanitarian law breaks the fundamental balance of certain games, for instance it is almost impossible to play team fortress two without shooting the medic first. I think that in certain cases it is justified, like in World war 3 cases where society has broken down, if your enemy has resorted to shooting medics and prisoners then i don't see why we should show them anything less than the same.

to mars or bust!

All I know is I have played my fair share of Mario Bros and now I am addicted to jumping on turtles backs...

This is probably the dumbest article I've read on this site. In Also it's not about science.

Honestly, violatiang ihl while blaying black ops? DUMB!

-sevykeble
the future is happening so fast that it is now.

So, what about World of Warcraft? Yeah it doesn't have actual ways to kill poeple but if we all started running around with metal gear, swords, and some piece of tin to block with and attacked poeple younger then us when they wondered in our zone, then would that vialate IHL? There is no answer, but my point is you will not, i repeat, WILL NOT see kids buying weapons, armor, and perks to go masacre thousands. Fantasy can only be as dangerous as reality lets it. As for GTA, i myself have fallen victim to stealing cars from drivers, pulling weapons out my ass, slapping around a hoe for my money back, and talking with a russian accent. Yep it is a hard but dedicated way of life. LMFAO!!

How about the red cross focuses on saving real people and real starving children, not lines of data

How about lines of data are no longer wastefully written for the stupidification of millions of game playing STUPID humans.

GAMES ARE A MASSIVE FUCCIN WASTE OF TIME!!

lol
@ghost

Someone forgot to take there meds...its ok bro get mad your comments and pure anger and hatred towards me just proves my point please pots more to further my point of why your old ways are ruining this world...not to mention how completly effed up the ancient old pricks in our government has made this once great nation because they act like a bunch of school yard douch bags only worried about what they want and what is going to help THEM and ther agenda and not what is going to actually help the people but NO NO you are right wisdon thats it they are WISE my bad....freaking idiot...

and before you post some stupid comment about typo's don't get over it I don't really care

@Delkomatic Let idiots be idiots... What's better than knowing they will be stuck being a IDIOT for the rest of their lives. :D

Given that I believe there's a very strong link between the bullying "epidemic" and how numb our society has become to horrific violence, I'd say that having the Red Cross investigating this topic is a good thing.

Consider that graphic violence that we now think of as entertainment was previously something that only actual combat soldiers would have to endure — and often suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder as a result.

And just because the game box says "M" don't think for a second that very little children aren't playing these FPS games!

@rg-5
So true my friend so true

well apparently they dont care about murdering prostitutes and cops in GTA, but killing terrorists is bad.

-Knock knock
-Who's there?
-The Doctor.
-Doctor Who?
-Yes

Well, terrorists aren't terrorists by everyone's definition you know, but prostitutes and cops are.

I realize I am a bit of an old guy in thinking (though still in my thirties) and I do not appreciate my kid's desires to play video games all day. If it isn't on his computer, it is on the xbox, or iPod, or whatever other gadgets he has. Although it works as a fantastic tool to get what I want out of them by taking those games away occasionally- I find I gripe at them all too much if I watch them play. They have no morals, compassion, or ethics while playing the games. They shoot friends in the back, they blast zombies into goop, and humans into goop long after they are clearly dead. I lose my cool and give them long winded lectures on maturity. Then we go a friends home and my friends play the same games my kids play. Grown men with jobs and families, and they act the same damn way in a video game. I appreciate some games. I loved WOW but quit when it interfered with my . . . entire life. I only played to spend time with the kids and spent most of the time complaining about what jerks they acted as in the game. Sneaky con artists they are! I tool around on the xbox and want to play Skyrim. But as for Halo, Blackops. . . I never liked them. I like them even less when I see my kid act like the antichrist in the games. I try to think it is only a game, and my kid would not really act this way in real life. . . then I realize that my kid acts this way in a game because he wishes he could act this way in real life. Black ops....he runs around me doing circles and killing me with a knife. I thought he was showing off and then I realize he is evil and wants to kill me in my sleep. My kid has serial killer desires and the video games are either an outlet or a petri dish where he learns his trade. Or not. He is a prick when I am not around, or thinks I am unaware, but if a game held players accountable for sick tendencies then I am all for it. Its that or I keep trying to beat some love for humanity into him.

@macdaddydave Give you're kids something else to do, and soon! Because instead of learning how to deal with life they are learning how to deal with video games and video games are not just a waste of time for the player but also for the developer, sure he's getting paid for what he does and it's great fun for the player(not really, fun is out there in the real world). But once the game industry disappears everyone will realize what a colossal waste it was! It doesn't bring anyone anything except money to the Publisher.

Get you're kids into the real world, sure it might be dangerous, but they'll have to deal with that sooner or later. Go get them a go-kart, go do some real stuff, take them to a paintball park to get a couple of real bruises and you'll soon realize how rubbish they are in the real world... It might even change their mind about what they do. Just do something else! Now! They aren't going to do it themselves with only Games on their mind! Do it now!!! Go! Make a plan man!

Talking about it and how sad it is doesn't help! Take action! I've already seen other kids go down the 'drain' so to say, it just gets worse!

I want some spicy shrimp fried rice and some kung pao chicken. It's friday too so I think I'll have a whiskey sour or just plain whiskey in coca-cola. Mmmmmmmm

@Jaydub, I was just replying to the commenter who said no children were harmed in MW. The Mature rating means nothing as do any disclaimers…go online, most of those kids sound like they haven’t hit puberty.

Also you failed to mention you play as an undercover American in said ultra-nationalist group. Who basically has to do horrific things to gain trust. (so morally justified) At the end of the day, the player has their hand on the trigger and can gun down as many innocent civilians as they want.

But my point is this. Humans have been developing over hundreds of thousands of years. Only recently has our sub-conscious been subject to this onslaught of violence. To the sub-conscious, it really did just witness a murder. So we witness glamorized murder 10’s of thousands of times in our lifetimes. This surely has an effect on how we view violence. Maybe it desensitizes us. It definitely indoctrinates us to the fact that human life is worthless.

In MW “death from above”, that is literally what a helicopter gunner sees, even the lingo is spot-on. Wikileaks leaked a video of two, I can only call them homicidal maniacs, chopper gunners, gunning down a group of UNARMED civilians with utter blood lust. They also shot up children. And said “that’s what they get for bringing their children to a war zone”. No you brought a warzone to their neighborhood. Also what they reported as guns were cameras, and they killed reporters from Reuters. These video games are training children to be animals. Just the type of people the military attracts.

In February a game is releasing called “Darkness” in it you play a demon who has to eat human hearts for rewards.

Society is degenerating. Old folks used to talk about it all the time when I was a kid. I didn’t know what they were talking about because it was the only world I knew. Now in my early 30’s, I see that they were right, every generation is getting dumber, more sheep like, more promiscuous, and lack of any morals or manners. When you kids get older, no doubt you will see the same thing.

P.S did you hear about the virgina tech shooting yesterday, I bet any money the shooter played MW.

Darwins Evolution applies everwhere, let the degenerating sick gamers degenerate and those who see past this stupidity go on! Haha Kill and be Killed, I hate killers, but I kill cabbages by the dozen!!! hmm nice greek salad :D

Yes instead of worrying about the countless horrors and atrocities being committed in the world's underdeveloped regions and attempting to enforce the law against government's like Mugabe's, lets just take out all our anger on those who play video games shall we Red Cross? Sounds like a perfect way to spend our time and effort towards building a better humanitarian world.

Should Video Games Adhere to International Humanitarian Law? NO!! you'd need to be a complete self-righteous nut job (Aldrons L.h)to pull that out of your ass.

Guns are cool, you are a brain washed sheep, go drink some diet soda, and watch the kardasians.

this is just rediculous, shouldn't the red cross be worried about other things in the world, such as HELPING PEOPLE rather then make a stink about video games violating international humanitarian law? i mean for god sakes, these are video games...they are designed to be a piece of entertainment and not a serious representation of how the world is supposed to be. next thing you know, they are going to say that movies are now doing the same thing. yeah they are and we like it so get off the case here and go do some actual good in the world.

I really can't see why this should be such an irrelevant debate.

A quick search found this interesting article:
http://www.pediatricsafety.net/2011/12/video-games-and-their-impact-on-child-aggression-and-empathy/
This is mainly focused on children, and I don't think it would have the same effect on adults.
Besides the red cross just proposed more realism in games that already aims to do so, why would it be so wrong to actually learn something relevant from a game such as MW3.

Though as the above article greatly suggests, this might not be enough. If its results can be trusted, then it would seem at the least, age restriction should be taken a lot more seriously. Parents should be informed about the effect on children already of an aggressive nature. Though more studies on this subject is needed. All i can say is that I've had access to games most of my life, and I think most people can at least testify to the addictiveness. And how angry I would get when my parent set limits to the amount of time I could play. Though it would only last for a couple of seconds, but I've never been of an aggressive nature. As to empathy, I am less sensitive to media violence than my parents, if this is necessarily related to gaming or more of combination between television, movies and gaming I'm not sure. And I'm just relating my personal experience.

My point is as already stated, this is not a irrelevant question made by religious fanatics.

People seem to forget a few things as regards video games. Also, people seem a bit ignorant of real life information that is available and verified by credible sources.

1) They are indeed a waste of time. They are a recreational activity, which by definition is non-productive or "a deliberate waste of time". Guess what, any activity involving a television is also a waste of time. So throw out that new 55" plasma you unproductive turd monkey and get cracking on some new aspect of this universe we don't understand yet.

Oh and as a writer it pains me to say this, but technically, any reading of anything that is not instructive is also a waste of time.

2) Video games are another form of escape. They are not meant to be real beyond providing a deeper sense of escape from real life. That's right folks, video games are an opioid in their function.

3) Violent people play violent games. This has been true through-out history. Chess, tag, and "smear-the-queer" did not turn little Timmy into a wanton killer and scientific evidence demonstrates that violent video games do not either. Children with strong sympathetic responses to real-life trauma show the exact same responses(in their measured brain activity and observed body language) to video game violence. What we are seeing today is that children really don't come with any built-in morals. Some children show a deep sense of compassion, which has nothing to do with right and wrong. You can still shoot someone in the head for their wallet while feeling bad about it, whether in real life or a video game.

Those IHL's everyone is up in arms about, they permit the killing of children provided they have a weapon(like a bomb strapped to them). The IHL's DO NOT prevent atrocity or PTSD inducing behaviors. The IHL's do not, in any way, punish warlords for arming children and making them lawful targets as combatants.

4) Businesses(of any stripe) are all out to do one thing and one thing only, make money. I do not care what their intentions are with that money once they make it, if they make a profit then they are a business. If you want violent gaming to come to an end, rid the world of violent people. How you do that is up to you, but believe me the problem is not the source of stimulation. The problem always has been, always is, and always will be those seeking the stimulation.

As an allegory, prostitution is the world's oldest industry for a reason, people want it. No one is kidnapping clientele off the street to pay for sex, people are kidnapping product to produce revenue.

So if violent video games make gaming executives wealthy beyond consideration then the obvious reason is people want to play them. It is not the fantasy rpg genre that makes the production of video games a billion dollar industry.

So my point is two-fold, video games do not program people(Caveat, I am willing to concede that those with weak minds and bad wiring are open to the suggestion that violent media of any kind provides) and violent video games exist for a reason, if you want to get rid of them then you must start by changing people. Good luck with that last one.

Regarding the specific question of whether or not video games should adhere to IHL, I agree; that's ridiculous, and makes this one more the more useless articles on Pop Sci.

But, whether or not video games should receive heavier monitoring on account of the behavioural impact they have, particularly on developing children, that's much more open for a serious debate.

Personally, I'm on the fence on this one; I haven't seen truly conclusive evidence on one side or the other (however, thank you Mison for your link; the studies quoted were really more of preliminary ones rather than exhaustive, but they did raise some decent questions).

ALH,

"This surely has an effect on how we view violence. Maybe it desensitizes us. It definitely indoctrinates us to the fact that human life is worthless. "

It's probably a bit overstated that "it definitely indoctrinates us to the fact that human life is worthless." I think that might be stretching it a bit, but I can definitely accept your sentiment, and it may well have a strong influence on this. I hope it doesn't, but fear it may.

If you're right, even in part, then yes; I think society as a whole probably needs to take a step back and take a firmer stance on instant self-gratification vs. social consciousness, and how video games inevitably play into that discourse (note, video games will never go away; so we need to figure out how to make them work for us, make them improve our social awareness without demoralizing us, and yet not deprive them of their entertainment value).

Realmslover, your points 2-4 are pretty well said. I can't say I 100% agree, but I accept your logic.

Though, I do disagree that they're strictly wastes of time; in many cases this is true, but not universally, and more and more I think we'll see this changing. Corporations are already looking at ways to learn from the gaming industry to improve motivation and productivity in the workplace. Further, there are literally professional gamers just as there's professional football players, etc. These gamers game for a living; and many are pulling six-digit figure incomes.

But regardless, even if its wasted time, I think every person needs to have some amount of "wasted time" to stay sane; it's healthy. Just, perhaps, some of us don't need quite so much..

Next thing you know, you will be paying upwards of 60 dollars or more for Forza 5, but you won't be able to play it until you stand inline at the DMV for hours to take the written test to earn an actual license just so you can race a car "virtually" above the actual speed limit. Because racing promotes illegal activity in cars. This will be next....

over here it is the virtual peaple you are killing and plus what kind of fun is there if all games are designed to be peaceful?? then there wont be god of war;halo;codor battlefield. And plus raceing games get boringafter sometime.So i am against this.

seriously? Is this really an issue? Might as well start arresting people for virtual theft after they play grand theft auto. Come to think of it, commander shepherd has a lot to answer for considering all of those credits he "found" inside peoples safes. Beating people to death with a crowbar? Gordon freeman's gonna get homicide charges for that one.

well,i guess the sith will have to stop chopping down defenseless troopers in SWTOR now....

-Knock knock
-Who's there?
-The Doctor.
-Doctor Who?
-Yes

I will never stop my desperate killing spree! I will kill all living things in my bedroom! On my TV! I will kill and T-bag all living beings! Man I love video games!