'Lovotics' Engineers Attempt to Give Robots the Ability to Love

Humans come in all shapes and sizes and responses. We vary and we vary largely. I do not think this is an issue. Give me a CAN OF SUPE that can communicate with me clearly, attively, ongoingly, intelligently and something I can trust and depend on, yes, I may consider giving up humanity. Soup does a body good.

We are talking about a object, fullfulling a human need, right?!

Of course, I feel an object of this purity and understanding and response is just impossible. Plus, I guess it's the value of choice that makes any real value to anything. I mean, a person chooses to love me or not in any given situation and they respond to me and my own limitations too. They love me for my own imperfections as I love them too.

I do not feel love most for being perfect. I feel most love for understanding me and my imperfections. I feel joy to help others as they are not perfect and carry them in life towards what makes them happy too.

Love of God for we are born. Love of others as our dear Lord loves us. We are told to live our lives in admiration of our dear Lord and show this this by loving others, sacrifice for others and forgive others. We do this as we love our own dear Lord and show this as proof we love our Dear Lord and Jesus. Our God is of God, Jesus and the Spirit. The spirit is the least spoken about in the modern world. Everyone wishes to hear of Love of God and Love of Jesus and forgivenes..... but the our Dear Holy Spirit is left untaught. Consider good intentions and the end goes wrong. Our Dear Lord feels the spirit of your soul and good intentions, the spirit. But consider asking for forgivness and feeling you receive it and sin again and again. You offend the spirit and loose your salvations. The Holy Spirit knows the truth. You need to live you live correct, love our Dear Lord, be sincere in you repentince. The TRINITY IS REAL! When you ask for forgiveness, be absolute in your attempt to not repeat the sin. Your soul is fighting, FIGHTING for HEAVEN!!!!

I wish I was much more clear in my ideas, thoughts and writings. I do not wish to be wrong or lead anyone in a wrong place. We are all born as individuals with free thinking minds. I know our Dear Lord loves all on this earth. We each are responsible for our own choices. You need to educate yourself, find your way and understand our Dear Lord. I am sorry, if I do not express myself corectly best for you. I say read the bible, but as I say this, it may offect you, since we are a modern society and this word bible and your own culture may have any meanings. I really love you and wish the best for you. I hope you find you way in life. Live you live for love. We are all born on this earth for a short time. My thoughts are to live to Lord my Dear Lord, Love others and forgive and search and hear my dear Lords voice. We are all little small ants, tiny in size and our Dear Lord WISONDOM, LOVE and SOUND is so BIG. The reality is, he created us humans and we need to learn humilty; to really understand how small we are in the cosmos. I am ok with science. But I also know what science is too, it it just a wonderful description as us humans descripibe the painting of our Dear Lord has made. We are all so tiny and yet we as individuals are so important; we are LOVED!

I wish I was much more clear in my ideas, thoughts and writings. I do not wish to be wrong or lead anyone in a wrong place. We are all born as individuals with free thinking minds. I know our Dear Lord loves all on this earth. We each are responsible for our own choices. You need to educate yourself, find your way and understand our Dear Lord. I am sorry, if I do not express myself corectly best for you. I say read the bible, but as I say this, it may offend you, since we are a modern society and this word bible and your own culture may have any meanings. I really love you and wish the best for you. I hope you find you way in life. Live you life for love. We are all born on this earth for a short time. My thoughts are to live to Lord my Dear Lord, Love others and forgive and search and hear my Dear Lords voice. We are all little small ants, tiny in size and our Dear Lord WISONDOM, LOVE and SOUND is so BIG. The reality is, he created us humans and we need to learn humilty; to really understand how small we are in the cosmos. I am ok with science. But I also know what science is too, it it just a wonderful description as us humans descripibe the painting of our Dear Lord has made. We are all so tiny and yet we as individuals are so important; we are LOVED! I suggest you live praising each day, THANK YOU GOD and show proof of you lvoe by action and love and forgive others. Yes you will die, we all do. Just be correct as you live life. Be calm, GOD HOLD YOU CLOSE, CARINGLY!

Wow, that is a nice built up man. Don't get me wrong, I think Jesus is the man, but in this case you might be a bit mistaken. If God did not want us to create artificial intelligent life, He would actually find a way to prevent it. I think this is just another test, because yes my friends the human race can never have enough tests, of the integrity of our faith. In the old days as it was clearly written in the old testament we had to fight with giants, the new era is bringing us evil encapsulated into steel.

Just like technology and science is advancing, the evils we have to confront need a new technological face. How can we claim to be faithful to a God who does not constantly provide new innovative tests for us. These researchers from the NUS Lab(maybe a lab run by the devil?) they are actually doing the Lord's work without even realizing it. Soldiers of God, producing the next instruments of apocalypse, only to be crushed by the Angels of Light once again. Fear not my friend BubbaGump, even though lovotics might seem like a tool of the devil, is actually the next stepping stone in our Lord's plan for total domination. I would not be surprised of we hear in the news tomorrow that the little cute robot has actually turned against its creator and roasted him to hell.

May the light always shine upon you and keep our bright young researchers in the dark.

BOOYA!

Horny engineers need love to.

@Arxidas "...If God did not want us to create artificial intelligent life, He would actually find a way to prevent it...." if you really follow you own logic, this would make our Dear Lord responsible for every bad thing that has ever happen in life, simply because he could of prevented it and did not. I do NOT agree with your logic, sorry. Our Dear Lord gave us all "FREE WILL" and yes we are responsible for our own actions and choices. But, I do agree with the idea, our Dear Lord has a plan and has a plan for all of us.

*FACEPALM* 7 posts... really?

If we are made in God's image, and we create life on our own all the time (my wife might scream "oh god" but it's not him doing the work), and we were given free will, and Jesus died on the cross to wash away all our sins... If sex feels good, because God made it feel good, why is it bad? If we are born nude, being nude is bad? Why is anything that the church can't control bad? I'm sorry, but, why does religion, most of them, constantly fight with science? If God was real, then wouldn't religion be working WITH science to prove the existance? It seems that, when you have something to hide, you oppose. And all I see from most religions is opposition to scientific advancements. Why? in my opinion, it's because the church is losing the grip it's had over the population that it's maintained for 2 thousand years. Why does the Vatican hide art? Hide portions of the bible that were removed? Hide information that is contrary to what they want? If you think that Jesus, didn't have a wife and kids, then you are daft. Jesus was a man, he existed, he might even of had great ideas, but he was a human none the less. If you believe that Mary was a virgin... why were they on the run? What were they hiding from? Why are their NO stories about Jesus as a child, teen, young adult? Why does it go right from birth to his last few years?

I see NOTHING about the article that would start anyone on the "religious" bs. If they can figure out how to make AI feel sensation as well as emotion, than we are better off! AI with no emotion is dangerous...

I'm not saying there is no "god" but I think that we have long lost what that term was supposed to mean, and that people, in greed, looking for control, created this "watch dog" were everything was seen and heard and only if you were good did you escape punishment. Why can't "god" be the alien or aliens that saw a buding planet and decided to speed it along? or what if we are what's left over from another race that was going exstinct? What would happen if we start terraforming Mars, find out that there is martian bacteria that is now mutating with earth bacteria? Didn't we just then create a new race? What if 100,000 years from now, mars has intelligent life again, humans are long since dead, but "stories" of a supreme being that created them still float around? It's not that far of a stretch.. but for some reason.. those religious amoung us can't think outside of the box that has been built for them to see that. Why can't you even just entertain the idea that you MIGHT be wrong? I've never seen such a stubborn bunch of folks. It's annoying.

Playing Devil's Advocate since 1978

"The only constant in the universe is change"
-Heraclitus of Ephesus 535 BC - 475 BC

I am looking forward to the singularity. When humans, robots and A.I. merge into one collective. Nothing will stop us.

Have you read the book boka? I've been paging though it on and off, but it's an amazing read. I do fully believe that Kurzweil right on target.

Playing Devil's Advocate since 1978

"The only constant in the universe is change"
-Heraclitus of Ephesus 535 BC - 475 BC

self aware emotional robots....o yea, excellent idea...ever had a stalker exgirlfriend? what happens when these get a virus? a bug? glitches make them crabby bitches!! laptop with PMS? bipolar factory robots? pleasure bots with jelousy and paranoia? seriously concerned....teach them love hate anger, fine but teach them morals. what happens when the computers discover religion?? does an AI have a soul? this question alone could put the self aware computers in a revolt. we see everyday what happens when humans clash over religion beliefs, imagine what will happens we through in robotic religions. apple vs windows could be a literal war. certainly the next few decades will be interesting.

@beefymclovin: I'm pretty sure my ex-girlfriend having a virus is the reason she's my ex...

And no matter how sentient robots get, or no matter how many sentient life forms we find out in space, humans will always be egotistical enough to maintain that WE are God's chosen children. Religion is about ignorance, egotism, and power, plain and simple.

-IMP ;) :)

BubbaGump.. Are you really on a science website preaching? Terrible idea.

@Sweepya, As for as understand the definition of "Preaching" is like someone standing at a podium speaking and the listening group is force to listen and not respond. So, I do not think I am preaching and you are perfectly able to respond to me. I am certainly not the all knowing. My opinions come from inside myself. I am not telling you or anyone else how to believe. I did recommend to others read the bible for finding their own way. I certainly do not want to lead anyone with the wrong ideas. Have you ever considered in this world how many varieties of religions there are with all the many cultures? I am come to one conclusion from this, we are all human, different, and unique and so we understand and hear things uniquely special in our own way with our own understanding. Now here is the really interesting part, billions of us in the world come to the same conclusion there is a GOD whispering in our hearts and mind. NOW THAT IS SO WONDERFUL, YES!!!!!! Often in science they like to say, give me the proof there is GOD; pull out a piece of fact and say here is GOD. But on the other hand, we have the whole world hearing and feeling, sensing a presense of GOD, individually. This I say is proof in itself. AMAZING!!

Here is a obvious silly question. What is the point of science. I believe to better understand life around us and to make our lives better, i.e., better house, better medicine, better cars, better electronics, etc. So how does science help me 150, 200, 300, 500 or a 1000 years in the future or forever in the future. For some who really depend on the practicality of science and can not see no further, they see their own bodies decaying, worms, and bacteria and they fade back into the earth. So what if GOD is real and your recieve simuliar as a mirror exactly what you believe in. They you will decay and be no more, the end. But if you do believe in GOD and search to know him better, they you have a future farther than 150 years to forever!

I really don't want to get into an argument over science or religion, but I would like to question whether or not this robot actually has any semblance of A.I. or if it activates various behavior programs based on if it detects touch or sound, essentially are these "lovotic" researchers claiming to have primitive A.I. for emotion or is it a fancy "press red button for anger, press blue button for love".

Although @arxidas: the train of thought your following is called manifest destiny, it basically means that whatever has happened is what God wants to have happened, so if your winning a war it is a righteous war. Bad idea to use that method of thought, rather destructive toward morality.

Although I'd like to hear some responses to this argument for God, and see what you guys think

Every cause must have an effect, for this second to exist there must have been one before it, for a house to exist a planner must have designed it. so, everything in existence is an effect of a previous cause. If this is true, and, being of a scientific mind, you accept there can not be an effect without a cause, then the idea of a start of the universe runs into a problem, the only logical solution to this problem without accepting supernatural causes is to assume there is no beginning and there is no end to the universe. If you trust in the Big Bang theory, you have two supernatural choices for solving this problem
1. that the Big Bang WAS a cause without and effect.
2. that a being of perfect completeness was the cause and as a being of perfection, existed without a cause because he IS the ultimate cause.

If you guys wanna have some philosophical fun I'd like to hear some arguments against this or for it and please point out any chinks in my armor so I can fix them.

Nadure Baile

14-year-old philosopher

Base upon 2 observations of this article. First look at the photo and then take in account the article itself. I guess the writer really wants us to believe this young lady now has a relationship or sorts with this machine. This is just a stupid and absurd idea and article. She might as well be masturbating and to consider masturbating itself a relationship too.

@BubbaGump...go away and get a life

"I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse."
-Isaac Asimov-

Need I say more?

Have a good day,
Kherzhul

There's no way a machine can feel love, or anger. Right now the smartest robot is about as smart as a "retarded cockroach" - Dr.Michio Kaku

Yes IBM made a bon fied search engine for jeopardy, but it's incapable of independent thought..it's still a calculator needing input.

@codezero REALLY? it will only take 100,000 years for bacteria to evolve into intelligent life? Can I get some of what you're smoking please?

@boka Kurzweil is a misguided and sad soul, his own mortality is what drives him, and it's selfish. I quote Bob Marley "If you know what life is worth, you will look for yours on earth"

He was speaking to religious zealots, praying for an afterlife, but I think it applies to the new religion of singularity as well.

Kurzweil says that by the year 2023 computers will finally pass us in terms of operations per second, finally the core intelligence will be there to create A.I. But I guarantee these robots will not be able to feel emotions or comprehend what they are...it will be programmed intro them. It's a loss cause.

Singularity is the lazy man's way to enlightenment and it will rob humanity for the chance to evolve into "homo cosmos" or higher beings by coupling us (nature’s perfection) with outdated chips, turning humanity into a race of robot slaves. I have outlined a negative outcome of singularity, so be careful what you wish for.

Just a side note...sci-fi has always attempted to give robots human emotions Eg.Data. This is because of their "singularity" obsession. But they have realized that robots will NEVER possess human emotion, intuition etc. So that's why you are now seeing humans being desensitized, to make them more robot like. Singularity equals devolution of the human race, into a race of hive minded borg slaves.

And their only selling point for this agenda is that “you’ll live forever”. How sick is that? The world is apparently overpopulated. So this technology should be given to everyone so they can live and pollute forever?

Bubba, your ignorance is hard on the mind. I don't feel as though I should have to dig to the bottom of my thought barrel to draw out an argument of intricacy so you can understand your own irrational mind. You have obviously never read the bible if you recommend it to people who seek life guidance and immorality. As it is only literature of prejudice, discrimination, logical fallacies and dependency. I, as an atheist, actually value this life. In turn, I cherish science. It has furnished the very computer you type on, the phones you speak with your family on, the medical tools that will keep you alive, and the understanding of your possible mental illness, so you can get over it.

God exists because people feel pain. Humans live because of pleasure. We, unlike other animals, possess imagination. Because of that we can imagine pleasures of life after death. So we created the after life. God is no longer, the observer, but rather the God of the gaps. He explains those things that we cannot yet understand but as soon as we do, his definition moves on to some other great and perplexing conundrum. The bronze age is a perfect example.

People use God and the afterlife as their purpose, when it's not purpose they desire. Because purpose is all around us. All children, wives, husbands, work, science, you name it. It's recognition that people need. So we built God. And he just so happens to hate all of the things we do, and gives us all of the things we want. There is no proof of God, every miracle explainable, every historical claim never to exist. Jesus did not live. Your God is you. That voice in your head is your own corruptions and limitations.

*morality

Aldrons- You are obviously just as delusional as bubba if you think that being able to live forever wouldn't be just dandy. I myself would love to have synthetic organs. What is even daringly sick about that? Do you not use medication or if you were to break your neck not desire a neck brace? We are only limited in our ways, you have a conservative though style that seems to be afraid of progress. Let me guess, not a fan of invitro fertilization or genetic altercation in the face of disability? Tragic, maybe you have never faced weakness or inferiority. Not until now, at least.;)

Overpopulation is not a problem in every area of the world. Just certain locations. With tech development comes space exploration possibilities. With synthetic organs, we may not even require the same atmospheric requirements, nanotechnology especially.

Try to keep an open mind.

@Sweepya just a "thought", I'm speaking of the singularity, the point at which A.I becomes greater than human intelligence, and there will be continued exponential growth after that point. At which point man will merge with machines, after that point biology might be obsolete. There's a difference between this and an organ transplants.

I wouldn't want to live forever. I'm quite content with my species. Maybe I'll change my tune when I'm older.

In nature fear,anger,envy are emotions that are needed for survival, not love. What happens when these super humans decide that love and morality is obsolete...and natures law is the supreme rule.

Genocide

I have an open mind, just outlining some negative aspects of the singularity.

Love is just as necessary as fear. Love is simply positive emotion that comes with an association of a person. All of these emotions, evolutionary. Rather, "necessary". It allows a "peaceful" nature and cooperation with positive reinforcement among animals.

I read a book called "Science fiction philosophy" that addressed all issues correlated with singularity. Such as, man putting AI to slave-work, treating them poorly and unfavorably in extreme conditions while ignoring the AI's potential to learn and adapt. All these issues have been addressed in Sci-Fi movies alike. However, unleashing the ability behind a human mind excites me. To be limitless and unbound by the biological weights that mask our potential. When giving a robot the ability to learn and adapt, the ability of a human, it abides by the same laws and morality that govern us. I believe we would fear robots no ore than strong individuals who pass us on the street. If they be treated with indiscriminate law and allowance, what is their to fear? If you give a robot the abilities of adaption and learning potential along with emotions, you better be ready to create something as valuable as human life. Otherwise, we shouldn't be creating this ability. It would be genocide, just like you say.

@ Aldrons Last Hope, first off, forgot a set of zeros, but it doesn't really matter, it's not like we actually know what will happen in 100,000 years or 100,000,000 years on another planet. Secondly, according to the religious, the whole expanse of the universe we know is only around 6,000 years old. Guess those Dinosaurs we've carbon dated to more than a million years ago didn't know this.

Bottom line, the Bible has more holes than a sponge and is as vague as it is flawed. Seriously, grab the nearest bible, and read the first two pages. And then tell me there isn't some serious issues there.

Why is it that those who wrote the bible were "puppets of god" but anyone today that says god is telling them to do things is locked up for being crazy?

Kurzweil has it right with his idea of the singularity, it doesn't however, take into account a few limiting factors. Religion and religious figures slowing or stoping research and products needed to continue the curve. Greed, the companies that are holding back tech because they are trying to ensure not only a return on investment, but a profit, this further degrades the speed of advancement. Politics, this runs in line with religion, people don't want to stir the pot, they don't want to cause an outrage, so if the public can't accept it, they hold off either on production of said device, or in the military's case, on announcement of the tech. If these factors were removed and tech were allowed to advance unhindered, Kurzweil's prediction would be spot on. His idea however is still correct, albeit his timeline is distrubed by these limiting factors.

The real bottom line is, those that use the religious crutch will never, ever, accept that there is no god, even if unrefutable proof is provided. They will never concede that they were incorrect. Those with a scientific mind, will accept a god if proven. They will concede. However those that have to jump onto every single scientific topic and ramble god this, god that, are just a waste of resources.

Here is some light reading, a list of Contradictions within the Bible itself.
http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

Playing Devil's Advocate since 1978

"The only constant in the universe is change"
-Heraclitus of Ephesus 535 BC - 475 BC

@Nadur.Baile,

"Every cause must have an effect"

Why?

In fact in quantum physics things are "random" and based around probability in a chaotic universe.

Also... our understanding of the universe is constantly expanding.

---

"that a being of perfect completeness was the cause and as a being of perfection, existed without a cause because he IS the ultimate cause."

1) define "perfect"
2) define "completeness"

If this "being" can exist without a cause/be his own cause... why can't I?

Maybe I'm god and I created myself? Maybe when I "die" I will instantly be reborn and relive my entire life in exactly the same way until I die and am reborn again and do the same thing over and over and over infinitely without realizing it as I have no memory of my past lives?

Maybe life is actually more like a DVD set on "auto-replay" and there is no such thing as an afterlife because after this life the DVD just skips back to the beginning and you do it all over again (exactly the same way)?

See? Anybody can come up with crazy B.S. for which there is no evidence and claim it as an explanation for what happens when we die.

But... you have no proof my infinite-DVD claim is any more "wrong" than any other religious claims...

@Nadure.Baile,

"essentially are these "lovotic" researchers claiming to have primitive A.I. for emotion or is it a fancy "press red button for anger, press blue button for love"."

You are a fancy "press red button for anger, press blue button for love" system.

Except with male humans it's more like "poke with a sharp stick for anger, press tits into face for love"

;)

@BubbaGump,

"Now here is the really interesting part, billions of us in the world come to the same conclusion there is a GOD whispering in our hearts and mind. NOW THAT IS SO WONDERFUL, YES!!!!!! Often in science they like to say, give me the proof there is GOD; pull out a piece of fact and say here is GOD. But on the other hand, we have the whole world hearing and feeling, sensing a presense of GOD, individually. This I say is proof in itself. AMAZING!!"

That's not really what happens.

What happens is more like this:

You are born, your parents make you go to church where a bunch of adults and authority figures try to control you and brainwash you until one day on a church hiking trip they take you to a beautiful vista.

Your brain, which has been shaped by evolutionary forces to light up like a christmas tree when it recognizes fertile pieces of land (lots of sun, plenty of greenery for eating, rivers for fishing, forests for hunting, fresh air for breathing, etc.), does exactly what it has been doing for millions of years. It starts releasing chemicals that make you feel GOOD about being there and seeing it.

However, the church people then turn your natural responses against you and tell you, "You are feeling the holy ghost! That is Jesus knocking on your heart! You can feel it, can't you? This good feeling that happens when you recognize the creation of the lord, your savior? When you accept him into your heart, every day is like this! Accept JESUS! LET HIM FILL YOUR HEART WITH THIS FEELING FOREVER AND EVER AMEN!"

And you, being in a compromised and irrational frame of mind respond with, "OH YES! YES JESUS! I WANT TO GET ON MY KNEES FOR JESUS UNTIL I FEEL HIS WARM SALVATION ALL OVER MY FACE! SPRAY IT ALL OVER ME LORD! SPRAY THAT STICKY HOT SALVATION ALL OVER MY MOUTH AND I'LL DRIBBLE IT DOWN MY CHIN!"

Nobody ever hears "God" tell them something like, "You should never eat shellfish" or "You should cut off a little bit of your sons penis" when they are on their church sponsored nature hike.

But once you've admitted to yourself and others that what you "felt" up there on that mountain with the sun reflecting crimson on the clouds and the purple mountains majesty and the babbling brook... once you've admitted that was "God", then you're now obligated to also admit all of the other nonsense other people are telling you is true.

Before you know it, what started off as feeling good and having a sense of appreciation for the world around you has turned into weekly confessions of your sins, shame-ridden sexual encounters, endless worry about whether or not others will think it "Christian of you" to drink beer or work on Sunday, and financial hardship through obligatory church donations.

But, at least there is a bright side... with your new-found religion you also get a channel to funnel your helplessness and anger about the world into hating "heathens" and "satan worshippers" which conveniently (phew!) are also people you don't like... like that damn satan worshipping blacks! Or jesus-killing jews! Or those damn heathen homosexuals who are responsible for God punishing your town with a Tornado! Maybe you really ought to round them all up and burn them at the stake to keep God from being angry and accidentally punishing you with another natural disaster meant to make life miserable for the homos.

As you might have noticed, although many religions claim there is "something more" than empirical reality... none of them agree on what that something actually is.

Some claim you will go live in an underworld, some claim you will come back as a cow, some claim you will be judged and punished/rewarded for your actions, and others still claim that you will live on as a spirit who watches this reality like a game show.

If everyone really does "hear God" as you claim... how come everyone is hearing different things?

@CodeZero,

"AI with no emotion is dangerous..."

What makes you say that?

Personally, I don't see a systematic difference between emotion and logic.

That is to say, they are both simply algorithms for making decisions. They are "decisions engines".

In fact I think they are nearly identical... except that many times logic can be conscious, while emotion is subconscious.

If I were going to make a decision consciously, I might make a list of "pros and cons" and then decide yes/no based on which column had more items.

If I wanted to get fancy, I might even add "weights" to the different pros/cons so that a "really big pro" counted more than "three small cons".

But, essentially this is exactly the same as making a decision emotionally. Except with emotions, you can't write down the quantity of chemicals flooding around your body.

You see a beautiful girl, your body automatically makes the pros/cons list for sleeping with her... except it does so with hormones.

You get enough hormones in the "pros" column, and you "emotionally decide" to go say hi and try to sleep with her.

If you were going to artificially implement a system for making decisions (an AI, if you will), it wouldn't really matter if it was "emotional" AI or if it was "logical" AI because the way in which the system worked would be exactly the same: binary logic.

Do I turn left now?
Do I turn on the AC now?
Do I recommend movie X on Netflix?
Do I attempt to kill all humans?

They are all decisions made with an artificial set of pros/cons... and the way the pros/cons are populated is based on the previous "learning" the system was exposed to.

You could teach the AI to be murderous and bloodthirsty, or you could teach it to be cuddly and loving, all based on your interactions during the "learning" phase.

For more info, google "Artificial Neural Networks"

@CodeZero okay thanks for clarifying that. I'm not arguing religion on this thread, I'm just saying we are now starting to learn about the wonders of the human body and brain, why just skip over it now. Have you ever heard of the C.I.A's project stargate? It was a remote viewing program ran out of Stanford. Remote viewers located secret Russian bases, downed aircraft hostages. Such is the potential of the human mind. This is true and before anyone scoffs at this, better do your research. There is no way man is going to improve on God's perfection, we are just going to ruin it.

No one can ever prove there is no God, just like no one can ever prove there is a God.

The general public laughs at the idea of psychic's. Yet every president, the Queen, Tony Blair, and people who shape this world all consult private astrologists. Why are we electing crazies or do they know something we don't? Considering the pedigree of these people I think the latter question is more pertinent.

I don't want to be part of the singularity.

For the record I am Christian and I believe in the Bible. I recommend reading it because it's profound philosophy. It rings true for me. Just like the Koran or Gita's rings true for others. What people fail to understand is that it's a personal truth. People have twisted every religion for personal or institutional gain. Let me put it this way, if a cop pulls over someone for speeding and kills them..it's not right, but at the same time you can't throw out all the laws. Don't penalize religion because some people use it to satisfy their desire to control.

Anyhoo just because a machine can mimic emotion, doesn't mean it is actually FEELING anything.

"Anyhoo just because a machine can mimic emotion, doesn't mean it is actually FEELING anything."

Do you have any way to prove anyone else is actually "feeling" the emotions they say they are? Or the emotions they act out?

@B.V yes, when I feel happy I laugh. Laughter is chicken soup for the soul. Therefore if machines have no soul they cannot feel emotions. They can mimic, but that's it, they are not sentient beings, they are calculators, and that's all they will ever be.

This article is implying that they can use brain wave scans on this machine...which is a complete lie, because to conduct brain wave scans, you need a brain, and A.I technology cannot even reproduce the brain of a chicken or ant, much less a human. FAIL

@Aldrons- Well, that's it. No more arguing with you. You're filled with irrational thought. I hope you're just young.

Astrology...
Psychic powers...
Christianity..?!?!

Teachers should really start emphasizing critical thinking because Logic has left the building.

wow.. just wow. this debate is the perfect example of why wars continue to engulf humanity. instigating(bubbagump) and trying to prove that you are the one that's always right. i shake my head. "god" would tell you to SHUT THE #^%( UP!!

To all that disagree with me or agree with me or have a very different idea of good; I just love the conversation, fantastic! You know, my dear Lord makes all individuals and with free will and imaginations. So just take a individual with free will, imagination and being unique and always you will have different opinions and ideas. You can poke at one single religion, say Christianity and poke at one single family and you will find individuals in that family having a unique and different experience, feelings and opinions. I am Christian and I also know when I die, I will be signally judge, only for my sins. Yes I do have my counselor (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit will be there as well. But my judgment will be all on me, alone, unique. It does not bother me so many different religions in the world or so many different feelings or opinions. We are all traveling in life with our own unique experience. This was all done by choice and plan, by our dear Lord. As much as all people in the world declare their own religion correct; I am simply saying they are at least declaring by their own loud voice a GOD is trying to speak to them. YES our DEAR LORD IS REAL. If we do get the message wrong, different, odd, unique, GOD IS BEAUTIFUL AND ALWAYS THE SAME, its man himself so odd, strange, small and unique that changes the experience, message or understanding of it.
BUT ALWAYS AND FOREVER< ALL THE WORLD HEARS GOD. THIS IS SO WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!

Consider indirect evidence in a crime. There are many a person in life, who has been punish to death, by indirect evidence, when there was no direct factual evidence available. Sometimes when the indirect evidence is of great quantify, so overwhelming, it just proves as fact.
Well, currently in life, 1000s. How many different religions that have ever existed? The whole world can feel, hear, sense of a presence, voice, a power exist. To all the unique people, different cultures, different graphical locations, different time and histories, the same thing keeps repeating over and over. There is a GOD and oh yes, some say GODS and GODESS. We all are unique in our perceptions and hearing. Still we keep hearing, sensing. We so many billions currently and so many billions in past history keep repeating the same declaration of a GOD. Doesn't indirect fact, eventually become fact!
And their of those in life, that just rebel, argue for the sake of arguing, speak loudly just to be odd and hear your own voice, yes, I know this too, you will not go away. You are part of the free will, independent society too. If you choose to believe in nothing, well you can just die and be eaten by the worms and bacteria and let you own soul fade way in the mirror of your own belief. I am sure as you fade away this will give you comfort you are correct. Or maybe you are not correct, but just receiving your just reward for not praising our Dear Lord as you should of. God Bless you all!

@Aldrons Last Hope,

"when I feel happy I laugh. "

When I want other people to think they are funny, or that I'm having a good time, or that I feel happy, I also laugh.

It's called lying.

Maybe that's why you are so damn gullible and believe in every stupid piece of crap idea you read on the internet... 'cause apparently you haven't discovered that people lie and manipulate and trick each other.

You have no way of proving that your wife doesn't fake her orgasms, just like you have no way of proving that your love robot isn't actually having an orgasm when it squirms and moans.

In fact... you can't even prove anybody else in the world actually has a "soul" as you/they might claim. Maybe you are the only "soul-filled" human and everyone else around you is just a bunch of androids who are really good at mimicking emotions that only you actually experience?

@BubbaGump,

You bring up several points to which I will respond separately.

1) "There is a GOD and oh yes, some say GODS and GODESS. We all are unique in our perceptions and hearing. Still we keep hearing, sensing. We so many billions currently and so many billions in past history keep repeating the same declaration of a GOD."

In fact many of the traditions which were not explicitly worshiping "supernatural" entities were destroyed by Christians and continue to be persecuted to this day.

The biggest example in Europe were all of the pagan/druid celebrations, many of which were absorbed by christianity (ever wonder just what the hell an egg and a bunny had to do with jesus? or why easter is in the spring?)

These people did not worship a "god"; they simply celebrated the natural world around them and used the power of symbolism to create a common culture (i.e. the bunny symbolized fertility, an idea important to the culture).

-----

2) "You know, my dear Lord makes all individuals and with free will and imaginations."

How exactly do you define "free will"?

Because, it seems that your "dear Lord" forgot to ask me whether or not I wanted to even exist in the first place. He just made me... without me having a choice about it.

And then, when I am existing, I'm not allowed to stop existing. If I kill myself, I have to go exist in Hell.

How is that free will?

He makes me when I didn't want to be made, and then if I try to stop being around, he traps me in an "afterlife" for eternity where I will now be punished for exercising my supposed free will? In essence, he only creates me to torture me for some reason... and then claims I have free will.

At best, your "free will" only exists as long as you don't actually try to use it and instead do everything your "deal Lord" commands in his 2000 year old manual on life.

Kinda like, if your cell phone company told you that you have "free texting" as long as you don't send any text messages.

Or like the famous Henry Ford quote about how you can have the Model T in any color that you want, as long as you want black.

Loved this comment^... So true. From beginning to end.

Bubba- quit talking out of your ass. Collect your thoughts before you start spilling yourself on the keyboard. Why is that when every Christian talks about their imaginary friend, it sounds like they're trying to convince themself and at the same time they don't really know what they're saying. People around the world claim they feel a god or know a god because throughout their life they've been told there's a god there. Ever had someone freak out and look behind you and say there's a ghost? You get really scared and your hair stands up, and you can just feel a presence there? Then you turn around and there's nothing there. And your friend is laughing at you. That's the same concept. If you feel really good, maybe euphoric, or you have this oceanic feeling of freedom, it's just emotion. It's not God.

I'm a Neurobiology BS, heading for medschool. I can promise you that even a biology 101 course will be worth your while. Maybe open up your eyes and mind.

@Sweepya, when a person becomes verbally or physically violent, its because their own intelligence has run of reponses and this is the only choices they have left. "... talking out of my ass..." is just an expression of your own limited knowlegde. I think science is great, I encourage and love the image of the world it paints, that our DEAR LORD has made. But in my heart, I rest my sould with my dear Lord. You can put all your faith in science, thats fine, its your choice, free will, live, self suicide, do all you wish, die and let the science identify the worms that eat you up and your decompose and feel good in this.
What you do not like is, my eyes are very open and I try to see farther than all the humans have created in Science. I feel there is something much more and beyond. I try to imagine our Dear Lord and he is limitless! But you can have your worms and limits of this world and those other humans telling you want to think around you.

@Sweepya,
Your right, scientifacly and factually I can not pull out of my pocket a clear and observalbe fact for you see there is a GOD. You are clearly correct. Science wins. But there at the same time, billions on this earth that seem do continue to believe in a GOD. I suppose you want the Scientist to be locking up the believers of that invisiable friend soon. Let me know, how that works out,hmmm? Fact is, all I have is hearsay the the world is round, but really infact only a few 1000 scientist have actually taken the time to mathmetically prove to themselves it is round. The rest of us just inmagine they are correct. I was standing at the beach the other day, the ocean was kicking and blue and went out forever to the blue sky rising higher; looking up was the moon in the blue. I guess the world is floating on the ocean and exstends out so far to appear in the blue and the moon is floating on the blue plane too. It's all just one plane of exisitance. But that was just my inmagination and I do believe the world is round from the hearsay the scientist that tell me so. The last reality is so few people in this world have first hand knowledge; yes we do live much on the experiences of others. I do encourage all to go out and descover the world, science, and yes our dear LORD.

@BubbaGump,

"Fact is, all I have is hearsay the the world is round, but really infact only a few 1000 scientist have actually taken the time to mathmetically prove to themselves it is round."

Wow.

"I guess the world is floating on the ocean and exstends out so far to appear in the blue and the moon is floating on the blue plane too."

Wow...wow...wow...

I guess this is what happens when your state cuts the science budget from school, eh?

Have you ever been on a plane, Bubba? You know, it's one of those magical metal birds that swallow up people and fly away with them?

If you had, you might have looked out your window at the horizon and noticed that the earth is actually slightly curved.

Have you ever watched a ship sail away into the horizon? If you have, you might notice that the first part that disappears out of view is the bottom of the ship. It actually looks like it sinks into the ocean, because the curvature of the earth obstructs the bottom of the vessel first...

Finally, here's an experiment you can do (and should have done in science class) to prove to yourself that the earth is actually round: http://www.smarterthanthat.com/experiments/the-earths-curvature-is-tasty/

See... unlike your "dear lord", science doesn't ask for your gullibility in accepting it's claims. It outlines the steps you would need to take to prove the claims for yourself.

It doesn't tell you to "just believe", it tells you to go do it for yourself.

@Sweepya, you might like Sam Harris

We agree, go out to the world and experience first hand. Yes, be a scientist too. I agree. But where we differ, my mind is not close to the limits of other humans that tell you what to think or not to think. I do believe their is always so much to know and understand about everything and yes, GOD is real. To anyone that does not like my opinions, I am cool with that. Its been a great conversation along the way, very cool.

@BubbaGump,

Okay. So, how many different religions have you tried? You know... to see which one "felt right"?

Christianity? Islam? Buddhism? Hinduism? Satanism? Greek polytheism? Paganism? Wicca? Jainism? Taoism? Atheism? Any of the Native American religions?

I agree... go out and experience the world first hand. Don't just take your parents word for it about Jesus... go try scalping your enemy or cutting out the still beating heart of your daughter as a sacrifice to Huitzilopochtli... who knows, maybe THAT is the real god and you've been wasting your time praising Jesus all this time.

Better hope you find the right imaginary friend before you die though...

@Sweepya...you are ignorant, I'm not upset by your ignorance, I pity you. First of all you have no idea how the world works, everything I have written is true. Did you bother to research the C.I.A remote viewing program? This program has located missing person after missing person. As far as astrology...did I endorse it? I just said that the most powerful people in the world uses them, and if you don't know that you are uneducated. Educate yourself, research Bohemian Grove. So if you think I'm out here for writing that, how about all the world powers actually using them?? And these are the people you bow down to. You are a pathetic sheep. You say that I'm naive, but it's people like you who swallow government lies hook line and sinker.

@B.V you laugh at people's jokes when they aren’t funny because you are weak and submissive.

Yes these are philosophical questions you are asking that have been asked since the time of the Greeks and maybe before. There is no way to describe a feeling of love or happiness...it just is. Robots may moan and jerk but there is no way there are feeling the elation of orgasm.

You may have to fake orgasms because you are a self admitted liar and submissive so you want to please your partner instead of maybe giving him direction on how to please you...try it sometime. :-)

Maybe you've never had one...I know it's real cause I can feel the vaginal canal, contracting and expanding, and unless she can command her body to produce fluids on demand I think I'm doing something right. Besides she has no qualms in telling me if I did a good job or not. It’s called being honest, try it sometime, your love life might improve.

@Aldrons Last Hope,

"Robots may moan and jerk but there is no way there are feeling the elation of orgasm."

and

"I know it's real cause I can feel the vaginal canal, contracting and expanding, and unless she can command her body to produce fluids on demand I think I'm doing something right."

You ever watch any of those adult entertainment videos of Thai strippers shooting ping-pong balls out of their vaginal canal?

I'm not a female, so I can't claim to be an expert, but I've known several females in my life who have demonstrated their ability to contract their vaginal canals during intercourse... and the thai strippers are video proof that this is possible.

Besides... even if your wife does orgasm... how do you know it has anything to do with you or what you are doing? Maybe she's closing her eyes and thinking about how hot the cashier was who bagged her groceries earlier that day?

Maybe she's thinking about how naughty she is for having just slept with her boss an hour ago and now sleeping with you without even having taken a shower?

Maybe she's thinking about running over a bunny with her car a week ago? Or being molested as a child?

Point is... you don't know. You can't. You can't ever really know what goes on in someone's head until we develop brain imagine technology sophisticated enough to do so.

---

Let me ask you this... does your dog feel emotions? If you kick or scold your dog, does it get sad? Or mad?

Does your dog have a soul?

Have you ever seen a bird chasing a cat around and attacking it for vengeance after the cat has destroyed the chicks in the nest?

Do birds have souls?

Your claim is that only things with souls can feel emotions, and yet as a Christian you must also claim that only humans have souls.

Therefore, according to your belief system, animals cannot have souls... yet they display emotions... so... do they actually "feel" them? Or are they just evil tricksters like me who lie about it?

@Aldrons Last Hope,

"you are a self admitted liar"

Nah, I lied about being a liar ;)

@B.V if you are not a woman, you have very feminine ways. It seems that you are a girl, or confused. Maybe you are a hermaphrodite or something?

Question Why would thinking about being molested as a child would bring a woman to orgasm? Do you actually believe victims of child abuse fantasize about it? That's pretty twisted of you, and it's not a normal thought process...maybe you are a hermaphrodite.

The fact that you find it so hard to believe a woman can orgasm with her true love tells me that you are lonely and cynical....no crime, but get help.

All dogs go to heaven, everyone knows that :-P

"@Sweepya...you are ignorant, I'm not upset by your ignorance, I pity you. First of all you have no idea how the world works, everything I have written is true. Did you bother to research the C.I.A remote viewing program? This program has located missing person after missing person. As far as astrology...did I endorse it? I just said that the most powerful people in the world uses them, and if you don't know that you are uneducated. Educate yourself, research Bohemian Grove. So if you think I'm out here for writing that, how about all the world powers actually using them?? And these are the people you bow down to. You are a pathetic sheep. You say that I'm naive, but it's people like you who swallow government lies hook line and sinker."

I'm ignorant for not believing everything I read on the internet? How can you even claim to be intelligent? Just because the most powerful people in the world use something, doesn't mean it's right or that it should be followed. You're a conspiracy theorist. Most likely a schizophrenic waiting to be diagnosed.

Not familiar with oxytocin(the love drug)? anything to do with the human body? It even states in the article that the robot would use the very hormones that allow us to love.

You're irrational in every aspect. You claim to Christianity and then point fun at me for believing government nonsense? Hypocrisy at its finest.

You stated above: "No one can ever prove there is no God, just like no one can ever prove there is a God."

Something born without evidence, can be easily dismissed without having evidence to do so.

@BV

Love Sam Harris

And..
Dan Barker
Richard Dawkins
Hawking

@Aldrons Last Hope,

"B.V if you are not a woman, you have very feminine ways. It seems that you are a girl, or confused. Maybe you are a hermaphrodite or something?"

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

"Question Why would thinking about being molested as a child would bring a woman to orgasm? Do you actually believe victims of child abuse fantasize about it? That's pretty twisted of you, and it's not a normal thought process...maybe you are a hermaphrodite.
The fact that you find it so hard to believe a woman can orgasm with her true love tells me that you are lonely and cynical....no crime, but get help."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

"All dogs go to heaven, everyone knows that :-P"

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html

---

Are you done thinking about my sexual organs yet?

Once you are, why don't you try responding to the discussion instead of spinning off into nonsense like an ADHD terrier chasing it's own tail...

@B.V listen lady, you are the one that brought up my wife, so take your own advice and stick to the discussion. Instead of acting like a an abused pug.

@Aldrons Last Hope,

Dude... you do realize that this is an internet forum? That I do not actually know who you are, or your wife? Or that you even had a wife? Or were a male?

It's just coincidence, man.

That was a figurative example to illustrate my point that you can't prove another human actually feels emotions when they act like they do just like you can't prove the robot DOESN'T feel the emotions when it acts like it does.

If I say "I love you"... you don't actually know whether or not I do unless you can scan my brain and see if my brainwave patterns match those of other people who also claim to be in love.

The scan of my brain would be empirical evidence to backup my claims. In the same way, a scan of the robots systems would also indicate that it does in fact truly love you instead of only saying it does in order to deceive you for some reason.

You and I are big fancy love machines, and if we can "feel emotions" then so can other love machines.

@B.V No , we are not machines, we are humans. Robots may be able to mimic responses to emotions like this article says. But machines will never be able to actually expereince love, or hate, or envy. We may be able to re-create the human brain in electrical form, but we cannot create a soul.

@Aldrons Last Hope,

So... the thing that separates me from this robot is a "soul"?

Define "soul"... because the Japanese believe robots have souls.

1.The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal

2.A person's moral or emotional nature or sense of identity
- in the depths of her soul, she knew he would betray her

3.The essence of something
- integrity is the soul of intellectual life

Why can a robot not have any of these things?

1) Obviously it's impossible to "prove" a robot has no spiritual or immaterial part just as it is impossible to "prove" a human does.

2) These robots are explicitly designed to have a moral/emotional nature... therefore they must have a (designed) soul.

3) By this definition anything that can be distinguished from anything else has a soul, and the soul is the combination of the distinguishing features of that object.

By the 3rd definition, rocks have souls, ideas have souls, dna has a soul, etc.

Another thing to consider... if you believe animals have souls, then it's only logical to conclude all animals go to hell, or limbo at best.

Jesus teaches Christians that the only way into his father's kingdom is through him. This is interpreted by Christians to mean that only those who accept Christ as their lord and savior and believe that he died for their sins will be able to make it to heaven.

A dog is incapable of understanding human language, and humans are incapable of understanding dog-language... therefore humans are unable to spread the word of the lord to other animals such as dogs, cats, hamsters, parakeets, horses, and whatever other beloved pets humans keep.

Since you are unable to "save" poor old Rover, when he rolls over for good he will have a straight ticket to eternal damnation and suffering.

In fact, if you believe every animal has a spiritual soul just as humans then you must admit that billions of animals are currently suffering in hell for their innate inability to accept Jesus Christ as their savior.

Do your arms hurt from reaching?

I designed my fence to have a soul...doesn't mean it has one. You are confusing sci-fi with reality. Robots are not nearly as advanced as they are made out to be in this article and in the media in general. The most advanced robots right now are about as smart as a "retarded cockroach"

http://science.discovery.com/questions/michio-kaku/michio-kaku.html

Dr.Kaku then speculates that maybe one day they will be as smart as monkeys. But the fact remains that as of right now, they don't have the awareness of a stupid insect LOL

Furthermore, this article states that the robot is only mimicking emotional responses...not having them. Do you understand that we are nowhere close to designing robots with emotions??

A.I is not sentient....get that through your head…go look up advanced robotics at M.I.T or Stanford and see how advanced they really are.

Listen if we were having this conversation 40 years ago, you would be telling me we’d be living on Mars with flying cars and robot slaves to take care of us. Cause that’s what the media was spouting back then. Now the media is telling us the same thing today about our advanced robot saviors…and if we’re lucky we can join with them in a singularity LMAO! I have news for you, it’s not true…stop being a sheep.

Then you go into a second post about animals and eternal damnation. I have news for you, ½ the world doesn’t even believe in “hell” ie Buddists, Jews, Hindus, etc etc. But they would all agree we humans have a soul. You are so prejudiced against religion you try to paint all Christians in the same vein, and as an open-minded person I find you argument beyond ridiculous, but funny.

Then you said dogs don’t understand us. Have you ever owned a dog? I’ve owned 2 pitbulls..and when I tell them to sit, they sit. When I tell them to watch, they watch every alertly. So proved you wrong there.

Don’t know what else to say to you except go read a book about world religion, your hate is clouding your arguments

Did you see the google doodle yesterday? Yes the father of modern genetics was a Christian.

@Aldrons Last Hope,

"I designed my fence to have a soul...doesn't mean it has one."

If your fence is unique from other fences then by the 3rd definition you posted, it DOES have a soul as it has an essence.

---

"The most advanced robots right now are about as smart as a "retarded cockroach""

This is very interesting. In your opinion do different levels of intelligence have different souls?

Like, a retarded human wouldn't have the same soul as a human of average intellect, who wouldn't have the same soul as Einstein?

---

"A.I is not sentient"

I never said it was. I think maybe you are misunderstanding the topic I'd like to understand better via your perspectives.

As a software engineer who has done work with artificial neural networks, I am very much aware of the limits of current AI.

At the same time, AI is quite good at some things (did you watch IBM's Watson on Jeopardy?)

In computer science terms, there is a philosophical concept that if one can't tell the difference between something "real" and something "artificial"... there is no difference.

So, if you did not know Watson was an AI system designed by IBM while reading a transcript of the show, you might assume that Watson is just a really smart human that won the game of Jeopardy.

In that limited perspective you would be unable to distinguish "artificial" from "natural" intelligence.

I'm not really interested about arguing whether current robots are as intelligent as monkeys or roaches or humans.

I'm curious about a hypothetical situation where YOU are unable to tell the difference between a human and an artificial machine.

At what point along the continuum between "stupid laptop" to "perfect replica of a human" does the A.I. acquire a soul?

---

I've read lots of books about various religions, and books considered holy within the religions.

From this reading it's quite obvious Christians believe in Hell. Are you claiming they don't? Or that you don't, but are still somehow a Christian?

I know many people have different ideas for what "soul" means--this is why I am trying to understand your view.

I have friends who are Secular Humanists who believe animals have souls--yet they don't believe in an after-life, gods, or anything metaphysical.

Their definition of "soul" is the same as that of the word "character".

How about you explicitly state your beliefs as they seem to be inconsistent and I'm curious about how you rationalize them all in your mind.

1. What definition of "soul" do you use to distinguish A.I. from humans? Or humans from dogs? (if in fact you DO distinguish between human and dog souls).

2. What sect of Christianity do you subscribe to?

3. Besides simple ideas like "watch" and "sit", have you been able to discuss with, or communicate to, your dog complex ideas such as a "divine creator" or "messiah" or "original sin"?

If not, then your pooches are in hell.

"I designed my fence to have a soul...doesn't mean it has one."

Classic word-play. Assuming your definition of a "Soul" is something that only sentient beings can possess let's look at the definition of sentience.

Sentience-
Sentience is the ability to feel, or perceive, or be conscious, or have subjective experiences. 18th century philosophers used the term to distinguish the ability to think ("reason") from the ability to feel ("sentience").

If robots are provided the design of hormone control via neural discrimination then by biological definition, they "feel" in no different capacity than a human being. If feeling fear and love allow us "Souls" then yes, you're dog has a soul but then again so will your 2030 edition of the roomba.

There comes a point in a mans journey for truth when he must relinquish his innate stubbornness in order to accept ideas that logically and scientifically make sense even though they differentiate from everything he's ever known.

--

"Furthermore, this article states that the robot is only mimicking emotional responses...not having them. Do you understand that we are nowhere close to designing robots with emotions??
A.I is not sentient....get that through your head…go look up advanced robotics at M.I.T or Stanford and see how advanced they really are."

This comes down to your understanding of the human body and the processes within it. You have a very common and rather metaphysical understanding from what I've read. If you look at the human body from a scientific and empirical perspective, however, you get a very different approach.

Don't follow a single word of an article too closely. look at the overall content, in which it implies that robots can love.

--

"Listen if we were having this conversation 40 years ago, you would be telling me we’d be living on Mars with flying cars and robot slaves to take care of us. Cause that’s what the media was spouting back then. Now the media is telling us the same thing today about our advanced robot saviors…and if we’re lucky we can join with them in a singularity LMAO! I have news for you, it’s not true…stop being a sheep."

Are you a prophet? How do you know this won't happen?

The difference between you and I, is that I'll admit that my fortune telling was wrong 40 years down the road and you'll still be clinging to your religiously based skepticism.

Science is ever evolving in understanding.
--

"Then you go into a second post about animals and eternal damnation. I have news for you, ½ the world doesn’t even believe in “hell” ie Buddists, Jews, Hindus, etc etc. But they would all agree we humans have a soul."

Yet, many of these people are still "Sheep" and follow other irrational ideas. Just because half the world believes that we have souls doesn't mean we do. If you are a scientific mind you would understand that if even 7/8's of the world believed something that deviated from the TRUTH, something empirical or rational, then still their belief isn't enough to justify that thing. Just because half the world believes there are pink unicorn's hiding in forests doesn't mean that there are.

--

"You are so prejudiced against religion you try to paint all Christians in the same vein, and as an open-minded person I find you argument beyond ridiculous, but funny.
Then you said dogs don’t understand us. Have you ever owned a dog? I’ve owned 2 pitbulls..and when I tell them to sit, they sit. When I tell them to watch, they watch every alertly. So proved you wrong there."

They learned how to sit the same way an ant learns to make a new path to a food source. It's called adaption. Animals will adapt to get the things they want. You're dog doesn't sit because it understands you, it sits because it has been taught to sit through a reward system. The same way you were taught to fear and value the afterlife's in your christian religion. You are not open-minded, you are close-minded. You accept irrational ideas without any filtering and then hold on to their concepts with your very dear life. creating a closed mind. An open mind still possess' a logical filter. I'm open to your ideas,if they make sense and my curiosity hasn't regarded them as irrational. If they don't make any logical sense, then they don't stay in my mind very long.

You should reconsider your understanding of open-mindedness.

--

"Don’t know what else to say to you except go read a book about world religion, your hate is clouding your arguments
Did you see the google doodle yesterday? Yes the father of modern genetics was a Christian."

I'm assuming you're speaking of Francis Collins? He's not the father of modern genetics. He's just a very renowned religious scientist who did landmark work with disease genes. I'll bet, 30 scientists more brilliant and in the same research area would disagree with him. Just because he holds your idea, doesn't make it any more right. That being said, his work is irrelevant to the history, belief and rationality of Christianity.

I suggest you read the book of your religion. there you will find more "hate" and anger than in BV's posts. I'm not sure what is even remotely hateful about them though.

@B.V

“If your fence is unique from other fences then by the 3rd definition you posted, it DOES have a soul as it has an essence.”

I left that third definition there for as a straw for you to grasp…and you have…very simple of you. You may believe my fence has a soul, but it does not.
“This is very interesting. In your opinion do different levels of intelligence have different souls? Like, a retarded human wouldn't have the same soul as a human of average intellect, who wouldn't have the same soul as Einstein?”
I am debating that humans have souls and robots do not. Stop trying to go on all these different tangents and stick to the topic. I know it’s hard for you to get pwned like this but man up (or woman up)
“At the same time, AI is quite good at some things (did you watch IBM's Watson on Jeopardy?)
In computer science terms, there is a philosophical concept that if one can't tell the difference between something "real" and something "artificial"... there is no difference.
So, if you did not know Watson was an AI system designed by IBM while reading a transcript of the show, you might assume that Watson is just a really smart human that won the game of Jeopardy.
In that limited perspective you would be unable to distinguish "artificial" from "natural" intelligence.
I'm not really interested about arguing whether current robots are as intelligent as monkeys or roaches or humans.
I'm curious about a hypothetical situation where YOU are unable to tell the difference between a human and an artificial machine.”

Your straw-man arguments are really lacking….where did you get the idea that I can’t tell the difference between real and artificial intelligence (if such a thing exists) Anyone who watches jeapordy would know that watson isn’t real because it doesn’t have a body, or a face, or hands to buzz in with. Watson is not A.I, lol, it’s an advance calculator that accepts key words in the question as inputs….it is not remotely self aware…you are lost that’s why you think Watson is A.I. LMAO SMH
You may have read books about religion (you are an admitted liar so not sure about that)…but they obviously haven’t been able to open your eyes to what 90% of the world knows….there is a realm above that which we see and experience in the real world.
I have already let you know exactly what I believe, and that’s that robots can never have a soul, therefore will never feel emotion.
Like I said all dogs go to heaven, only twisted people that fantasize about child abuse could visualize dogs going to hell….like I said before, get help. Your thought process isn’t normal.

P.S I asked if you’ve ever owned dogs and you didn’t answer and you expect me to answer personal questions? You are a class A hypocrite.

@Sweepya, you can go through life admitting you were wrong….while I’ll be happy in the fact that I am right. And you have never owned dogs so don’t speak on the topic. I can tell because if you did you would know that dogs also respond to people’s names and places, they have memory and feel emotions. Unlike your robots. LOL
No I was not speaking about Francis Collins…there you go being wrong again…(does it get tiring) I was speaking of gregor mendle.
Religions don’t preach hate…people put their own political spin on them, that is what generates hate. Go back to school.
Anyways….come with better arguments, you like B.V are grasping at straws.

@Aldron's Last Hope

"I know it’s hard for you to get pwned like this but man up (or woman up)"

I'm sorry is this WoW or are we having an intelligent discussion?

"So, if you did not know Watson was an AI system designed by IBM while reading a transcript of the show, you might assume that Watson is just a really smart human that won the game of Jeopardy."

Given the current state of our technology, any person with an IQ above that of a paramecium could differentiate between emotional intelligence and a glorified calculator - you are, quite tragically (as with all spiritually inclined religious apologists), missing the point.

Human beings do not have a soul. Our self awareness, along with our feelings, like fear, anger, love, as well as our analytical, creative, and emotional capabilities are the result of a complex series of electromagnetic and chemical processes occuring within specific areas of our brain that can be quantified and mapped - in time. I am not saying that there aren't areas of the brain that that still must be studied, but with regard to human consciousness more and more the evidence seems to suggest that it is entirely dependent upon the physical (i.e. biological) interactions that are going on inside our skulls. It may seem like common sense to an atheist, but consider the fact that when you die you cease to exist. This would seem to be strong evidence that consciousess is tied to physical processes in the brain, no? I would suggest reading some of the works by Sam Harris (popular advocate of atheism, and a neuroscientist to boot!) which might provide you with some insights into the physiological aspects of the human mind. I would also recommend taking a course in say physiological psychology that might prepare you for further research.

All of that said, it is entirely conceivable to postulate on humanity using our knowledge of neuroscience, as it progresses in the future, to construct a rudimentary brain by way of reverse engineering. Some might argue that the brain is simply too complex to replicate given our current state of technology, I would readily agree, that is why I say to my fellow futurists - patience. There is no reason to assume, based on the current rate of development in the fields of neuroscience and nanotechnology/robotics, that in another 100 years (a conservative estimation) we might possess the ability to create - life. Thus fulfilling humanity's collective oedipal prophecy of usurping our imaginary father's place as the real Gods of our world.

"I'm curious about a hypothetical situation where YOU are unable to tell the difference between a human and an artificial machine."

Like I said, you'll need to wait quite a few decades for that to be possible, but as I have also said, it *is* possible, and to be frank it is quite statistically probable. Human beings do not possess a metaphysical/spiritual/supernatural distinction from any other animal species on this planet, we simply have a supercomputer inside our heads, with a lot more space on our hard drive and a great deal more virtual memory. It is just a matter of time before we have mapped the whole system and can replicate it with our advanced technological equipment.

"You may have read books about religion (you are an admitted liar so not sure about that)…but they obviously haven’t been able to open your eyes to what 90% of the world knows….there is a realm above that which we see and experience in the real world."

Fun fact, 90% of the world's educated elite are non-religious. Consider for a moment if someone was asking why their car won't start. This statistic you seem quite impressed with is like 90% of the world's expert automobile mechanics telling them its the radiator, while you and 90% of the rest of the uneducated masses are telling them its a band of pixies tearing out the vital "invisible" parts that make the car run. It really doesn't matter how many people are saying that little elves live under the hood of your car, they are all wrong. Also, calling someone a liar is a bit hypocritical when it is only the religious who seem to make pretensions to knowledge they have no way of proving.

"I have already let you know exactly what I believe, and that’s that robots can never have a soul, therefore will never feel emotion."

They will feel emotion much like we do as it is simply a sensation created by environmental stimuli coupled with chemical reactions in the brain. We also see in "codes" much like a robot would, we just have a computer in our heads capable of rendering said information into an understandable format which can be quite aesthetically pleasing. If you don't believe me, just read a few quantum physics books and learn about the many scientific nuances on matter of which our entire universe consists. No angels and fairy dust I'm afraid.:( You are correct however! They will have no soul, much like humans, who do not possess one either.

"while I’ll be happy in the fact that I am right."

What exactly is this "fact" based on? Could you link me the scientific article which supports your delusional worldview? This type of "faith" which cannot be corroborated by evidence and is not based on statistical probability is the primary reason why religious belief is abhorrent to science. I can actually give you a scientific article which discusses your version of faith as a psychological disorder in my book called "The Psychology of Abnormal Behavior" In fact yours is the very definition of delusion.

"Religions don’t preach hate…people put their own political spin on them, that is what generates hate."

Have you ever even read the Christian Bible? or The Muslim Qur'an? Religious texts which are anti-intellectual, anti-progressive, sexist, racist, homophobic, and replete with hypocrisy are oddly enough much more efficient in generating hate than "putting a political spin" on something. Could someone be so kind as to quote some excerpts from say, Leviticus?

"Go back to school."

I am. Grad school in fact. I would advise you to consider the same.

@ cynical thought…..okay thanks for jumping in, it really does take 3 atheists to argue (debate ended a long time ago) with a believer.

“I am. Grad school in fact. I would advise you to consider the same.”

Buddy I can promise you that I make more than you, live in a nicer house and drive a nicer car...and by your straw man arguments I can tell that I’m more aware than you..so sit back listen and you might learn something.

First off that statistic about 90% of the world’s elite don’t believe in God is B.S Stop pulling statistics out you @$$ and provide a link if you are going to say such outlandish things.

The greatest scientists believed in God….here is a list. Mediocre grad students like you who will never contribute don’t count.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html
That’s not including all the Muslim scientists that contributed to our understanding of Algebra and the number system in general.

Question, how the hell are we going to reproduce the human brain when we don’t even know how it works yet??. This is you..”um chemical reactions, um neurons, electrical signals”…..yeah AND?? Yes there is a biological side of the phenomenon known as emotion…but greater than that there is the metaphysical side, which involves the soul, which robots will never have. (but humans do)

You are the type of person that dreams of traveling the stars but won’t face the fact that we can’t even travel to Mars. Robots can debone a chicken, but they don’t know WHY they are doing it, or What they are etc. It’s ludicrous for you to sit there and say it’s statistically probable that robots will feel emotion..when there is ZERO evidence to back that claim up….I bet you believe in Santa clause too?? You have faith in science….and that’s good…at least you have some understanding as to what faith is.

Also you have a complex. You are prejudice and racist to say the things you have about religion. You are an atheist? Good for you, but you don’t’ have to come knocking on my door peddling your delusional beliefs….if I want to look into atheism I don’t need small minded fools trying to convince me that I’m wrong, or that they are right….when the best scientists in history have been religious. Your writings reek of hypocrisy….at least acknowledge the fact that the list of scientists I provided you had the right to believe in what they did. You say religious beliefs is “abhorrent”, yet most scientific breakthroughs come from religious scientists….can you or ANYONE explain this disconnect?? I can…you are a sheep.
Here is a verse from the bible…. 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 - Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
Yeah sounds really racist and prejudiced to me…NOT. Yes I’ve read the bible and there are MANY good lessons in there for blind sheep like you. P.S and love will never be felt by robots cause it’s a gift from God! HA!
What exactly is this "fact" based on? – Call it intuition. LMAO….any more predictions about intergalactic space craft and comedian robots in the next 100 years? It’s easy to make predictions that none of your peers are going to be around to discredit..

Any ways you mentioned the world’s Elite. Do you know who that is? Have you ever heard of Bohemian Grove?? SHM The greatest trick the devil ever played is convincing man he does not exist.

Listen I have no time for kids like you with your wet robotic dreams….you want to be atheist fine, it’s your right…but don’t go peddling your religion (cause that’s what it is) online..it’s pathetic.

Robots do not feel emotion and as of RIGHT NOW they will not feel emotion. Go fantasize somewhere else.

@Aldrons Last Hope,

"Robots can debone a chicken, but they don’t know WHY they are doing it, or What they are etc. "

You can Type things on the Internet, but do you know why? You are attracted to women (presumably), but do you know why?

I'm sure inevitably once you reach the end of your knowledge your answer will become, "'Cause God did it."

Okay, but do you know why he did? No.. you don't. You cannot know the "why's" of God, just like a de-boning robot doesn't know the "why's" of Man.

You jump through God's hoops like a de-boning robot jumps through Man's hoops--existing in a pathetic state of following directions and doing things for reasons it doesn't understand (or, even attempt to contemplate, to be honest).

Who's the real sheep? Say, ever wonder why pastors are called Shepherds in the Bible? 'Cause they lead religious people around like sheep... :)

---

You have lot's of fun questioning my masculinity--yet I am not the one that gets on my knees for another man (Jesus), nor do get off on claiming some man from 2000 years ago loved me so much that he died for me (that's more romantic than Romeo & Juliet!)... and I especially don't put up quotes explaining the intricacies of this man-on-man-on-god-on-holy-ghost lovin'.

That's all you, "Buddy".

In fact the whole religion of Christianity is just a little too "sausage-fest" for me. I mean, at least I can kinda understand Muslim nutjobs wanting to get 72 virgins in Heaven... but, you get to go sit in the bosom of Abraham (a dude) and play with Jesus and his Holy Father (all dudes).

You accuse athiests and futurists of having wet dreams about love robots? But what about your own homo-erotic and incestuous wet dreams of Christianity?

"Call it intuition. LMAO"... but I'd bet seeing a half naked jesus bound to the cross like a submissive bottom in a gay bondage/ S&M club in San Francisco get's you more excited than when I watch Watson win in Jeopardy.

BTW... maybe look up the definition of "intelligence" before claiming Watson isn't AI since he "doesn't have a body".

It's become more than obvious that you, "Buddy", are incapable of any sort of reasonable or logical reasoning, much less explanation for your belief system (not surprising, but disappointing, as it means my search for a religious apologists capable of rational thought must continue).

"Buddy I can promise you that I make more than you, live in a nicer house and drive a nicer car...and by your straw man arguments I can tell that I’m more aware than you..so sit back listen and you might learn something."

Well I could care less if you own a pent house in New York, you don't impress me in the slightest. That whole paragraph was merely a pathetic attempt at goading, and completely irrelevant to the conversation. My point was that I value learning, which you clearly do not. Spare us all the high school debate team tactics, and stay on topic when you respond to myself or anyone else from now on.

"First off that statistic about 90% of the world’s elite don’t believe in God is B.S"

Haha, not quite. The results of the poll can be found in this journal:

Nature, Vol. 394, No. 6691, p. 313 (1998) © Macmillan Publishers Ltd.

Or they are discussed here: www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

I'm sure I dont' have to tell you that Nature is a peer reviewed scholastic journal - unlike that god website you listed. Incidentally Richard Dawkins references these very statistics in his book "The God Delusion" which is an excellent book I would highly recommend reading.

Godandscience.com? Give me a break and start looking outside of the biased world you live in. If you approach the topic with only the intent to prove god you will only find articles perpetuating the idiocy being spouted by religious zealots who claim to be scientists.

"Question, how the hell are we going to reproduce the human brain when we don’t even know how it works yet??. This is you..”um chemical reactions, um neurons, electrical signals”…..yeah AND??"

And this is you: "Um, god, um souls, um love, um we're different and special because I have faith."

Scientific methodology doesn't work like religious faith, you neurotic twit. When you investigate a hypothesis like the existence of souls, you don't just get to posit that they are there because we lack the evidence to say they aren't. The burden of proof is on *you* the believer to prove to me that souls do exist. Its much like if I were to say that unicorns existed in the center of the sun. We don't just agree that they exist until you prove they aren't there, as that would be irrational. So, until neuroscientific research shows that there is a clear indication of a metaphysical component to human emotion, we can only make inferences based on the current evidence which suggests it is a physical process involving chemical reactions in the brain. Based on the statistical likelihood that the evidence will continue to reveal biological causes for love, fear, etc we can have faith (because of statistical probability) that there is no spiritual hocus pocus going on inside our heads.

"Yes there is a biological side of the phenomenon known as emotion…but greater than that there is the metaphysical side, which involves the soul, which robots will never have. (but humans do)"

Yes, there is a biological side, we're in agreement. We know this because we've been to grade school and have taken courses that describe the anatomy of the human brain. Where exactly did you ever find evidence that supports the existence of a metaphysical side though, hm? The pattern indicates that all human thought is linked to physical processes and so based on current observation we can realistically assume science will prove this, in time. I have faith based on *evidence* and *statistical probability.* You on the other hand have an irrational faith based on nothing but your own childish beliefs. Robots could have the same sort of emotional and intellectual capabilities we humans have because there is nothing unique about our physiological structure that separates us from any other animal on the planet (we are simply anatomically more complex), and if we can reverse engineer the brain structure of a cockroach, its only a matter of time before we can replicate that of a human.

"You are the type of person that dreams of traveling the stars but won’t face the fact that we can’t even travel to Mars."

You're the type of person who is incapable of thinking long term apparently. You haven't the slightest idea what sort of breakthroughs scientists have been having in fields related to space travel, nanotechnology, neuroscience, biogerontology, or robotics. You just look at the status quo and assume that must be how it always will be. In other words, you're an ignorant person, essentially. Here are some books I'd suggest reading on the future of technology, physics and religion. They might be help clear up some of that mental debris:

Physics of the impossible - By Michio Kaku
Hyperspace - Michio Kaku
The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins
The End of Faith - Sam Harris
Moral Landscape - Sam Harris
Goodness without God: A Defense of Metaphysical Naturalism - Richard Carrier
Godless - Dan Barker

"when the best scientists in history have been religious."

Incorrect. Religion is an oppressive organization. Do you honestly think the best scientists in medieval Europe would be open atheists if it meant being burned at the stake? The most influential scholars in the modern world have openly admitted they either do not believe in a personal god or are open to the idea that there is no god. Atheists are the movers and shakers of this world, not Christians or Muslims, or Buddhists or anyone else that believes in the sort of twaddle found in a holy book. You're so quick to call everyone else hypocritical and sheep and yet you believe in the most idiotic fairytale nonsense to have ever plagued our world. The disconnect there? You are an irrational close-minded fundamentalist conspiracy theorist who spends his time on Christian websites reading what only the most addle-brained morons over on Fox News would ever accept as actual fact. Ironically enough, you then enjoy spouting these ludicrous theories on a website devoted to popular science.

"Here is a verse from the bible…. 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 - Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."

Real poetic. Allow me:

Slaves, obey your human masters in everything, not only when being watched, as currying favor, but in simplicity of heart, fearing the Lord. (Colossians 3:22 NAB)

Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 NAB)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You shall not delay the offering of your harvest and your press. You shall give me the first born of your sons. You must do the same for your oxen and your sheep. (Exodus 22:28-29 NAB)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Yes, you're right, the Christian Bible does sound prejudiced, and sexist, and it condones slavery. Imagine that.

"don’t go peddling your religion (cause that’s what it is) online..it’s pathetic."

I'll do whatever I like. Atheism is derived from the Latin a (meaning without) and theism (belief in god). The very etymology means without belief, so it cannot be a religion. Perhaps you should follow your own advice and sit at the kiddie table when the adults are talking.

"Robots do not feel emotion and as of RIGHT NOW they will not feel emotion. Go fantasize somewhere else."

Still missing the point entirely I see. The innovations being made *right now* are indicators of the types of technological advancements that can and will be made in the future. In other words, its speculation, based on what is likely to happen given our current progress. Unlike your idea of the soul which is completely baseless. What I find hilarious is that you don't want anyone speculating about the future of robotics, but yet here you are engaging in a self-righteous tirade about fantasies like souls and god. So again, take your own advice because I'm guessing no else here has any use for it.

The three inalienable truths:

The Universe is infinite.
Existence is essential.
The only purpose in life is survival.

@B.V
"You can Type things on the Internet, but do you know why? You are attracted to women (presumably), but do you know why?"

Unlike your beloved robot, I know why. I type things on the internet to express myself, to interact with like minded people, and to educate sheep like you. I am attracted to women because when God said to go forth and multiply LOL. Other than that there is a biological need to reproduce.

In what way am I jumping through hoops? By living a fulfilling moral life? Is that why you fantasize about dogs burning in hell and child abuse? Are you jumping through hoops.

You also lack basic reading comprehension. If you go back in the thread I wrote watson was non-human because it didn't have a body, fac etc (read into th, i'm saying it's obvious it is not biological) Here is the scientific definition of intelligence.

A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings—"catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do

As I said before watson is a calculator, with a very advance search engine....it cannot reason, think abstractly, and it certainly does not comprehend it's surroundings. It is not A.I

Listen lady if you want to put a homo erotic spin on everything you read and see I suggest you go watch Superbad and 300...LMAO!!

Yes we are all sheep to some extent...I mean we all pay taxes, work, and obey silly by-laws (no jay-walking). But there are people out there that are mind controlled from birth to death via media and government lies....who is the sheep?

Muslim "nutjobs"?? LOL your ignorance is astounding (no offense) Why are you so filled with hate? Is it because religion gives people purpose and you have no purpose? So what if you have no purpose..why do you have to rain on others parade. At least acknowledge all the contributions that christian scientists have made.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html

No atheists have thus far acknowledged this...but you go on how religious people have no place in science...that's called denial.

Listen lady, you want to understand the mind of believers...but you preface it with
"I am not the one that gets on my knees for another man (Jesus), nor do get off on claiming some man from 2000 years ago loved me so much that he died for me (that's more romantic than Romeo & Juliet!)... and I especially don't put up quotes explaining the intricacies of this man-on-man-on-god-on-holy-ghost lovin'."

Who is going to take you seriously, or want to speak with someone with that degree of ignorance and hate? That's like me being interested in China and walking up to a group of asains and say "I want chiken fly dog, I want to kill my daughters" All the while pulling my eyes into a squint. Do you realize how counter productive your arguments are...not to mention prejudice and ignorant?

Yes I am Christian, but do you see me preaching (like you) to people that they are wrong or trying to convert people (unlike you)no I say it's your right to believe in what you want and leave it at that.

I would like to continue our little discussion, but we are really not going to get anywhere if the smart assness continues.

You want insight into my beliefs?? Even though you still haven't answered the one personal question I asked. (Do you own dogs) Although by your remarks about dogs in hell I suspect you don't / never have.

You want some insight..answer this...is the glass half empty or half full???????????????????????

IMO it will be thousands of years before robots can begin to understand that question, much less feel the emotion of finally understanding the answer.

@cynical thought

You are cynical, that's for sure...but don't know about the "thought" part.

I couldn't care if you are impressed or not....just go take the bus to your 1 bedroom apartment and shut up.

That article you sighted is from 1998! It's 2011 buddy. Also it was a study that included 400 scientists (not elite scientists what ever that is...haha) OMG ROFLMAO! This is where you go wrong...400 people were surveyed in 1998 and you have the nerve to say to me that "elite scientists don't believe in God"? Listen boy that survey was not taken at Notre Dame or BLU I can guarantee that. It's so easy to control sheep like you, do a small 400 people survey and they have convinced you that most academics are atheists. You need to open your small mind and expand beyond your little world of non-believers.

With all your words you have said nothing...but your key words..."speculation", "probability", "perhaps", "maybe"...give me a break...just say it "coulda, shoulda, woulda, that's all you are saying.

Atheism is your religion and your belief structure. Not only are you w/o belief (which is fine), you are out to prove others beliefs are wrong, this is where you fail epically and turn the simple beauty of atheism into a religion and you are no different than the pastors you look to undermine. HAHAHA

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The Bible teaches to love....all the world needs is love, not the chemical reaction you seek to program into your lovebots...but the infinite love that is god. That's alot better that the eugenics the likes of Bill Gates, Dr.Miko preaches, depopulation, etc.

I'm not missing any point just stating the fact that robots will never have souls (like humans do) give it up loser.

The Universe is infinite. Wrong it is finite..the curvature of the universe is there and will be observed. Read some books on quantum physics and the multi-verse

Existence is essential. Whose existence? God's? We finally agree :-)

The only purpose in life is survival. Wrong again little boy, you sure you are not an undergrad?
The purpose of life is to be happy, and to pursue that happiness is a god given right. Even the people who brought you out of serfdom knew this. Do you second guess the founding fathers as well?

Ignorant child.

"I couldn't care if you are impressed or not....just go take the bus to your 1 bedroom apartment and shut up."

I take it this is the part where I am supposed to be intimidated? You're beyond pathetic if you honestly think anyone here is buying into this idea that you're on another level than we are. You probably live in a podunk town in the midwest. You were brought up in the Christian church and now you are an anti-intellectual redneck hillbilly who read a few books and thinks he has a voice? You think you're going to change the inevitable course of our society which is becomingly increasingly non-religious by "educating" what you call "sheep?" Sorry, not buying it. For all we know you probably live in the basement of your mother's house. At any rate these baiting tactics are amusing...but I thought I told you to stay on topic when you address me? Do so.

"That article you sighted is from 1998! It's 2011 buddy. Also it was a study that included 400 scientists (not elite scientists what ever that is...haha) OMG ROFLMAO!"

No one is laughing with you...so stop trying to convince yourself you just made some kind of incredible point. The survey was taken in 1998 and they were nobel prize winning scientists, which, means they are elite. It also demonstrated a "trend" (you do know what that is, right?) which means the results are likely just as relevant today as they were then, assuming the majority of today's scientists are like-minded...which there is no reason why they wouldn't be. Again, read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins as its not anyone's job here to spoon feed you these patently obvious facts - especially not mine.

I am not going to find more bible verses to throw at you as there is no point. One bible verse condoning slavery outweighs a thousand talking about love and all of that other idiotic drivel.

"The Bible teaches to love....all the world needs is love, not the chemical reaction you seek to program into your lovebots...but the infinite love that is god."

Love is a chemical reaction, so its the same thing, or was that little tidbit to obvious for you to grasp as well? Again, we are in agreement that there are biological components to emotions like fear, anger, and love, but we have no proof of the metaphysical, so until we do we will assume that all emotion is merely the result of chemical imbalances in our brain. No soul, no infinite godlike love, just environmental stimuli followed by a response. This can be quantified and eventually replicated.

"I'm not missing any point just stating the fact that robots will never have souls (like humans do) give it up loser."

Right, but I said we don't have souls, so your "fact" is irrelevant. Loser? Are you 12?

"The Universe is infinite. Wrong it is finite..the curvature of the universe is there and will be observed. Read some books on quantum physics and the multi-verse."

The multiverse and an infinite universe are not mutually exclusive. The theory supports the idea of an infinite universe, essentially a neverending stream of parallel universes. The universe I am referring to encompasses those. No, there was no beginning called god, sorry.

"Existence is essential. Whose existence? God's? We finally agree :-)"

Hardly. Your god does not exist, so whose existence must be essential? Ours. Moving on.

"The only purpose in life is survival. Wrong again little boy, you sure you are not an undergrad?"

Well if the degree on my wall is any indication, yes, and how old are you again? Some doey-eyed youth who clings to all of the lies your parents told you when you were a child? The biological imperative of any animal species is to perpetuate our own genetic material, this is fairly evident in the process of evolution by natural selection. We as a species are nothing more than a bacteria growing on the side of a rock with the ultimate goal of populating this speck of dust we call our home. Eventually we will need to expand and this will result in the colonisation of outer space, which we will do through the utilization of our technology. This is common sense. The only God we need worship is ourselves.

"Ignorant child."

What is unfortunate is that you are truly ignorant, but I don't think I'll call you a child, because that would give you an excuse. You are simply a fool. I don't have to proselytize to anyone on a popular science website about atheism, as we are the majority. At any rate, I'll assume you've heard of the Reason Project, a group of popular advocates of atheism who are doing that sort of work for me. There is a cultural zeitgeist happening, in case you have been living under a rock and were unaware. More and more members of the Milennial generation are climbing out from under the oppressive regime of religious indoctrination. I couldn't be more pleased. You and all of the other fundamentalist bigots can keep spouting your lies, but you'll join every other hatemonger on the ash heap of history.

The three inalienable truths:

The Universe is infinite.
Existence is essential.
The only purpose in life is survival.

@Aldrons Last Hope(Tragedy for Aldron)

You're an idiot.

@Aldrons Last Hope,

"I am attracted to women because when God said to go forth and multiply LOL. Other than that there is a biological need to reproduce."

So... the fact that you keep imagining me as a woman... should I be worried or flattered?

You're not gonna try to "multiply" with me, are you? I fear my descriptive language of your boy's love club of a religion has got you too excited! Oh dear! Better get on your knees and pray the gay away until you feel Jesus's warm salvation all over your face...

---

"In what way am I jumping through hoops? By living a fulfilling moral life?"

God says "jump" and you squeel "how high!?"; God says "Get on your knees" and you wet yourself with glee in "pleasing" the lord.

Besides... you still haven't gotten past the most important question, WHY did God tell you to go forth an multiply?

Or are you incapable of thinking back further than to one degree of causality?

Try this... imagine a field of dominos... one falls and knocks over the next, which knocks over the next... but why did the first domino fall? Because another domino knocked it over? Because a person poked it with a finger? Because a breeze blew in through the window? Because "God did it"?

Your answer of "God did it" is not a final answer, because I can always ask, "well, but WHY did God do it?"

WHY does god want you to honor your father and your mother? WHY does god want you to multiply? WHY does god want you to kill people who sin but also tells you that killing people is a sin? Does this mean you should kill yourself?

---

Finally... I have no idea how this is remotely relevant, but I'll answer anyway 'cause apparently you'd like to imagine me as a lady with a dog:

Yes, I've had a dog as a pet. In fact I've had 5 dogs as pets since I was a child. I've also had 7 cats, a hamster, two birds, a rat, a snake, and dozens of fish.

My favorite color is green, and my favorite fruit is the persimmon. I like long walks on the beach and candle lit dinners, or just snuggling up on the couch with a funny movie... oh wait, what is this again? A discussion about what it means to be human, have emotions/intelligence, or a f'ing personal ad on craigslist?

Jesus Christ! You must have an attention deficit disorder the way you spout random and irrelevant B.S. about being rich or having a big house... or maybe you actually realize that your brain lacks any logical thoughts and your positions hold no merit in this debate.

Is this the case, "Buddy"? Must you resort to random (and probably false) characterizations about yourself to try to win favor? Because obviously your ideas and opinions are not enough... nor is your capacity to clearly and effectively express them.

So why not? My house is so huge it's got it's own house... just like my dick is so huge it's got it's own dick. And even my dick's dick and my house's house is bigger than your dick and house.

QED I have won this debate... now back to bouncing on my priests lap while singing "for the Bible tells me so".

@Cynical Thought,

"I am not going to find more bible verses to throw at you as there is no point."

I think at this time in the "discussion" with Aldrons Last Hope the only value we can salvage is by evaluating the case of how a person with his opinions could even exist.

I think it would be very illuminating to see which portions of his brain were lighting up during this discussion.

It's very obvious to me that his "beliefs" are self contradictory and irrational. I'd be willing to bet he holds those beliefs because in his brain the cognitive dissonance is FAR less uncomfortable than the emotional discomfort he would get from evaluating reality on a factual basis.

Take, for instance, his strange belief that his dogs are in Heaven. Obviously this is not logically consistent with his other belief that the only way into Heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as savior.

Most religious apologists have resolved this conflict by simply forming a new belief: "Oh, our pets don't have souls, so they don't burn in Hell for eternity... they just don't get into heaven either though".

Apparently the idea that his dogs just "end" when they die is so emotionally painful for Aldrons Last Hope that he is somehow able to come up with another belief about how his dogs can get into Heaven and have souls (though he is not able to express this belief despite my constant prompting on the subject).

I think ALH's responses in this debate have served as a testament to the amazing capacity of the brain to compartmentalize information and systems of logic, as well as evidence to suggest that models of humans as "rational" actors in society are not accurate. It would appear that humans actually have many subconscious "decision engines" on top of which (sometimes) SEEMINGLY rational and conscious behaviors can exist.

Unfortunately ALH lacks the self-consciousness required to probe such a system (through discussion) to discover the more detailed intricacies of how it all works together.

It's been interesting though!

@cynical thought, no you should not be intimidated, but you should realize that you are speaking with your superior in every way. I hope one day you get there yourself, but as of now you are just a dumb kid. Not sure why you are attacking my thought processes when it has brought me much success.

Again that was a survey done in 1998 with 400 scientists. And you have the gall to claim that 90% of scientists don’t believe in God. That’s B.S, this is hardly a discussion because you run away from my valid points (as in all the scientists through history that have believed in God) In fact you into hersay, saying “they were forced to believe because of the time”. How would you know that? Are you a mind reader…P.S the 1800’s were hardly the middle ages. You are delusional and your arguments are weak. Here is a quote from Oppenheimer (he invented the nuclear bomb) A boy like you probably doesn’t know this.

“Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous centuries.”

Now this guy was a genius, a real genius that acknowledges the beauty of religion. Unlike a smart ass student that scoffs at thousands of years of knowledge. You can learn something from the scientists that came before you if you’d stop being so stubborn.

Yes please don’t put anymore verses from the good book….the phrase pearls before swine comes to mind. The bible speaks about slavery because there was slavery back then..it draws a picture of what life was like back then (old testament) before Jesus dies for our sins (new testament). But I don’t think you will be able to understand the difference so we won’t go into it now..respond if you want a more in depth education.

“No soul, no infinite godlike love, just environmental stimuli followed by a response. This can be quantified and eventually replicated.
No it cannot be replicated by machines…sorry to burst your imaginary bubble, but computers are not capable of conscious thought, much less love. Stop imagining things and making them up for the sake of argument. The fact remains that machines do not feel emotion. Our argument is that I’m saying they never will, and you are saying they will. Well the fact that they don’t and things tend to remain in the state that they are in….they won’t. Again, sorry to make you cry, but the fact is machines, computers, do not feel emotion. Your argument is maybe one day they will…..hell maybe one day we will we genetically spliced with eagles and space bacteria and we will be able to fly to the moon ourselves…is that feasible in your imaginative mind?
Your atheist movement is meaningless is the grand scheme and has no effect. Even if one generation strays, your children will be back. The fact remains that most of the world’s population believe in a higher power, be it Jesus, or Allah or Chiva. Your small movement will not change that. Look around, Churches are being built every where yearly….puts your points to rest doesn’t it? No I never heard of the reason project, and I will soon forget it, because atheists have no funding..LOL

One last thing…who is being a bigot?? Have I condemned you to hell..lol, no I said you have the right to believe what you want, and I have the right to believe what I want. But you keep preaching that the religious (most of the world) is wrong. So who is the bigot? You are being a bigot. …”I couldn't be more pleased. You and all of the other fundamentalist bigots can keep spouting your lies, but you'll join every other hatemonger on the ash heap of history.” That sounds pretty hate filled. So take a look at yourself.

This is you” You were brought up in the Christian church and now you are an anti-intellectual redneck hillbilly who read a few books and thinks he has a voice?” Atheists really need a satan or something to focus your hate on..it’s toxic…”redneck” …”hillbilly”…wow that’s bigoted. You are joke. Um yes I think I have a voice, everyone does you soiled child not just “intellectuals”. How the hell are you going to say I’m anti-intelectal..because I’m religious? You realize every University has a religion program, that is taught by intellectuals?? This is too easy.
Also religion has been around since the dawn of history. LMAO at you for thinking your small pathetic movement will change that. You are truly delusional in every sense of the word if you think religion will die when Christianity who counts its number in the BILLIONS will fail because of a few million godless empty souls…HAHA (can’t stop laughing) Christ >Reason Movement
This realm we are in is not infinite it is finite. This dimension is finite….in fact when it stops expanding, it will start contracting.
“Existence is essential.” This is redundant. Your existence is definitely not essential to mine (although I don’t mind it) and vice versa I’m sure. My existence is not essential, the human race is not essential…the only thing that is essential is God, for without god there would be nothing. So there, I re-wrote your vanity card for you “God is Essential”
“The only purpose to life is survival.” Stop spewing this garbage. Maybe for an ameba or river salmon, but we are humans, created in the image of the divine…survival is a given…life is about finding happiness. One way to find happiness is to do good. That doesn’t make sense to your brain I’m sure. Because if life is about survival, why waste energy and resources on charity? Do you believe charity is counterproductive? Why not let the needy die and make way for the fittest. Answer this question IF YOU CAN

@sweepya…way to contribute their buddy..that’s all you got? “Idiot”?? Here is a link to an online dictionary, hopefully you can use it to put your thoughts in order..instead of stammering one word replies…LMAO!!
http://dictionary.reference.com/

@Aldron's Last Hope (Aldron's last resort.)

"but you should realize that you are speaking with your superior in every way."

Well if I had any doubts about your idiocy before, you've just quelled them. You are laughable, honestly, get over yourself.

"Again that was a survey done in 1998 with 400 scientists. And you have the gall to claim that 90% of scientists don’t believe in God."

We get it...it demonstrated how the worlds elite -nobel prize winning scientists - didn't believe in god then, and they don't believe in god now.

"How would you know that? Are you a mind reader…P.S the 1800’s were hardly the middle ages. "

I read books you arrogant blow-hard. You can quit acting like all great scholars have been religious, they weren't. Read a few biographies, most just pretended to believe in god because they were pressured to by society - but personally? Not at all. I'm sure you think Einstein believed in god as well. Do you know what a Spinozian god is? Its nature. Atheists use this as code when we are forced into public spheres to maintain our credibility in a country where morons like you are in charge.

"Now this guy was a genius, a real genius that acknowledges the beauty of religion."

Well the man was a genius, certainly, but you couldn't be more wrong about his beliefs. I assume you are referring to his quote from the Bhagavad Gita? That had nothing to do with his religion. Oppenheimer openly admitted he had a crisis of faith, and never believed in a personal god despite the fact that he identified as Jewish.

"No it cannot be replicated by machines…sorry to burst your imaginary bubble, but computers are not capable of conscious thought, much less love. "

They will be in time. Human brains are nothing but organic computers which can and will be replicated. Enough said?

"Our argument is that I’m saying they never will, and you are saying they will. Well the fact that they don’t and things tend to remain in the state that they are in….they won’t."

@ B.V. @ Sweepya, I literally burst out laughing when I read this. I hope you did too. @ALH, our argument is that you refuse to accept that the human consciousness is the product of physical processes in the brain. A physical process can be studied (this is neuroscience) and mapped, and then reverse engineered (this is neuroscience and applied physics coupled with knowledge of nano-technology and robotics). Sorry to burst your bubble but your aren't gaining any ground here.

"You realize every University has a religion program, that is taught by intellectuals"

Well you couldn't be more wrong. I suppose I should have expected this coming from someone who would reference Notre Dame and BLU in a conversation about robots. Try Oxford, you ignoramous, no one respects Church schools like you apparently do, and if you want to consider "theologians" intellectuals, I'll concede, but you'd be hard pressed to find a true academic who takes them seriously. An entire life studying a storybook about fairtales? You might as well earn a PhD in Mother Goose rhymes. A lot of universities have courses about religion, but no they don't all have them, and in the schools I have visited they are generally designed to teach students about how idiotic religious belief is, or at least that is what I gleaned from them.

"Christianity who counts its number in the BILLIONS will fail because of a few million godless empty souls…HAHA (can’t stop laughing)."

Laugh yourself until your blue in the face for all I care. Do you honestly think numbers make a difference you illiterate moron? He who controls education controls the future. Ever heard of the separation of church and state? Ever wonder why we took god out of the pledge of allegiance? Ever stop and think of why praying isn't allowed in the public school system or why they don't teach intelligent design? We just keep getting closer and closer to a non-religious state and you think the billions of uneducated Christians make a difference? Who is the sheep now?

"Existence is essential.” This is redundant. Your existence is definitely not essential to mine (although I don’t mind it) and vice versa I’m sure. My existence is not essential, the human race is not essential…the only thing that is essential is God, for without god there would be nothing."

Without humanity, god would be nothing. We created god, we can destroy god. You are correct your existence is in no way essential to mine, but our existence is essential to even postulate any of these complex ideals, or to engage in this inane banter. Quit being such a blithering idiot.

"The only purpose to life is survival.” Stop spewing this garbage. Maybe for an ameba or river salmon, but we are humans, created in the image of the divine…survival is a given…life is about finding happiness."

You are an amoeba. Ever look at your size compared the vastness of the universe? Survival isn't a given, its an objective, accomplished through adaptation via the process of gene mutation. Happiness is an endorphin induced response to environmental stimuli which occurs in order to help encourage optimistic thought and facilitate innovation. Without happiness, we would not have - survived - which is the ultimate purpose to all life. Charity, which I'm surprised you believe in, is a way to assist in the flourishing of humankind. Unlike you, I have compassion for those without anything, and I seek to liberate them from the oppressive ideologies inherent within right wing religious sects. Humanity is an organism, our objective is to survive, charity only helps those without the necessary means to support themselves accomplish this universal goal.

Listen, let me make it clear for you - we aren't buying what you're selling. What part of that do you not understand?

The three inalienable truths:

The Universe is infinite.
Existence is essential.
The only purpose in life is survival.

@B.V “
So... the fact that you keep imagining me as a woman... should I be worried or flattered?” – Neither, I’m married….but if you want to send a pic go ahead :D
“You're not gonna try to "multiply" with me, are you? I fear my descriptive language of your boy's love club of a religion has got you too excited! Oh dear! Better get on your knees and pray the gay away until you feel Jesus's warm salvation all over your face...”
You really need to stop watching porn right before logging on to popsci. Still kinda funny though cause it shows how homo-phobic you are. And again, you want to discuss the mindset of a believer and the first thing you do is make ignorant, vile statements. Are you are that incapable of being civil?
“Besides... you still haven't gotten past the most important question, WHY did God tell you to go forth an multiply?”
Yes the “WHY” is the most important question, another reason why machines will never be conscious because they don’t understand the “WHY”. God told us to go forth and multiply, because he made this universe for us, for us to experience individual consciousness and in turn he experiences the universe through us….not as an all- mighty creator, but as a common mortal.
“Try this... imagine a field of dominos... one falls and knocks over the next, which knocks over the next... but why did the first domino fall? Because another domino knocked it over? Because a person poked it with a finger? Because a breeze blew in through the window? Because "God did it"?”
My answer would be your sex change DR knocked it over.. BHAHAHA!!
“Your answer of "God did it" is not a final answer, because I can always ask, "well, but WHY did God do it?"
My answer to that would be your arms are too short to box with God :-)
WHY does god want you to honor your father and your mother? WHY does god want you to multiply? WHY does god want you to kill people who sin but also tells you that killing people is a sin? Does this mean you should kill yourself?
It says clearly in the bible you reap what you sow (the origins of what goes around comes around) There is a time to create, a time to destroy. This is all common sense and you have to use your judgment, moral and logical when making decisions. This is something that will never be able to be programmed into a robot…a robot will only be able to execute commands. I don’t think you should kill yourself…there are others like you out there..find them, then form a support group and call it the Reason Movement.
It’s relevant because then you would know your doggy would have gone to heaven :-( In doggy heaven it’s steak dinner every night, and there are no cats, except Lions, but they are friendly especially Simba.
That’s cool, we should get together for a coffee or something…my favorite color is green as well, see there’s common ground there!! :-D….my favorite movies are Clerks 2, Tombstone, Matrix and die hard what’s yours??
Wow you are a clinical psychologist, thanks for diagnosing me..NOT. God you make me laugh. I admit, it was a bit egotistical for me to go into that…but cynical was saying he’s a grad student blah, blah, and I was explaining that you can be successful with a bachelor’s degree as I have so don’t scoff at people who don’t have PHD next to their name, cause life experience and adaptability count for something too in life. I’m not trying to win favor…people who brag about themselves are usually hated and maybe rightly so, I was just trying to make clear that I’m not to be dismissed because of my religion because I live a very fulfilling lifer personally and financially.
BTW you have won nothing. Just by saying that reveals your insecurities. In fact you haven’t said anything of value in the last 2 posts. Okay you won at alienating the over 2 billion Christians in this world, but that’s it.
I contend that computers will not be able to feel emotion because they haven’t thus far and systems tend to stay the same. You have won nothing…and you have done nothing except make yourself look like a foolish racist bigot.
“now back to bouncing on my priests lap while singing "for the Bible tells me so".
The Bible does not tell you so. You should report your priest to the police.

@ B.V.

"I think at this time in the "discussion" with Aldrons Last Hope the only value we can salvage is by evaluating the case of how a person with his opinions could even exist."

I couldn't agree more. In my conversations with theists, I have usually run into two different categories of belief - rational and irrational. The rational believers are what I like to refer to as those "on the fence," or religious apologists, while those who simply blindly accept the existence of god are fundamentalists. The apologists are sometimes intellectually gifted people who are under the misguided impression that religious fundamentalism should be protected because it is someone's "right" to believe in irrational things. The fundamentalists are well...like ALH here. My purpose in any discussion is to first determine what sort of believer they are and go from there.

First I'll explain the two different types of faith, either rational (based on evidence and statistical probability) or irrational (based on someone's "intuition," which is what they'll always say). You, myself and Sweepya understand that when someone believes something irrationally it might seem harmless, but if we humor irrational beliefs as the apologists would want us to, then we must ask ourselves to what degree does irrationality become dangerous before people are flying planes into buildings? And to what extent do irrational beliefs help humanity progress? Aren't they inherently reactionary, as a byproduct of tradition? The answer to these questions (as we atheists know) would of course be to simply, think rationally.

Now if the theist is an apologist who is open to the idea that there is no god, it is simply a matter of pointing out how belief in the supernatural is incompatible with current evidence, and that irrational faith based on intuition is dangerous. If they are intelligent, they will realize that you do not need to go beyond the facts to establish a rational worldview.If they are fundamentalists they will dismiss the idea that their beliefs are harming anyone, ultimately missing the point much like ALH has done in this thread time and time again.

"It's very obvious to me that his "beliefs" are self contradictory and irrational. I'd be willing to bet he holds those beliefs because in his brain the cognitive dissonance is FAR less uncomfortable than the emotional discomfort he would get from evaluating reality on a factual basis."

Check and mate. :)

Have you read any of Sam Harris' work? He voices a similar assessment of irrational faith in his book "The End of Faith." Great read, and I have recently finished The Moral Landscape as well, both of which have some incredible insights into the neuroscientific research going on at UCLA on faith and religious prejudice.

"I think ALH's responses in this debate have served as a testament to the amazing capacity of the brain to compartmentalize information and systems of logic, as well as evidence to suggest that models of humans as "rational" actors in society are not accurate. It would appear that humans actually have many subconscious "decision engines" on top of which (sometimes) SEEMINGLY rational and conscious behaviors can exist."

You are not far off. In fact Harris is investigating whether there is a neurological as opposed to merely psychological difference between brains capable of adopting highly irrational belief systems and those that adhere to a more scientific train of thought. It sort of ties into the issue of cognitive dissonance and why brains capable of entertaining various incompatible ideologies - which is demonstrated in an unwilligness to even acknowledge the hypocrisy apparent in religious texts - would rather hide from reality than accept it. Now I am not a neuroscientist but I think they will find a connection between the imbalance in interconnected hormonal systems associated with psychopathy, or at the very least a connection to brains suffering from depression. In a way dependence on the "opium" of religion to reassure oneself that there is an all-knowing, all-powerful father figure is no different than those suffering from obsessive-compulsive or bipolar disorders when they employ magical-type thinking behavior in order to alleviate anxiety. The anxiety is simply associated with their own mortality and preservation of their "souls."

"It's been interesting though!"

It always is.

The three inalienable truths:

The Universe is infinite.
Existence is essential.
The only purpose in life is survival.

Why would I bother organizing a system of explanations for you to understand the flaws of your own logic? Like many have said, there's no point in rationally arguing with religious people, otherwise there wouldn't be religious people.

The only reason I wasted any energy earlier was because I assumed you were "On the fence" about your beliefs. Now I see from your posts that you've profoundly adhered to your moronic and stubborn beliefs.

Everytime you comment you just blab incoherent thoughts. Not even you understand your own logic. You have no understanding of science. You shouldn't even be on this website. This website is dedicated to the brilliant breakthroughs and minds of the people who are taken for granted by people like you. People who thank god for miracles and gifts of invention rather than the engineers who designed it.

People like you are a disease. I'm sure you find this hilarious and you're just so proud to be drugged up by your love for god.

And as far as your references go, they don't mean anything to any of us. Mendel wasn't even educated the way scientists are today. He fucked around with pea plants and discovered variations in offspring. It has absolutely no correlation to a god what-so-ever. The inquisitions? Fred Phelps? Followings of your religion. Who are justified by the words of the very text you believe to be a godsend. All these people all over the world with their own truths about folklore. It's nothing more than fuel for war. I want nothing to do with your imaginations. Your imaginations are ancient and they are flawed and un-godlike.

I think you're just an apologetic nerd with no independent thought. If you had any science education you would understand that in order to prove something as a fact you must first provide a null hypothesis before you can further your experiment. If the null hypothesis doesn't have any effect and cannot be justified then you can proceed with empirical evidence. In other words, so you can possibly understand, on a journey for truth if all you look for are things to justify what you originally believe then you will justify it as truth ONLY in your mind. If you challenge what you believe with things attempting to disprove it and they cannot manage enough evidence against it, then and only then will you have a universal truth.

Unless you are going to apologize to me for being an idiot and a waste of my time, don't bother replying. I prefer not to have my comments misdiagnosed by your pathetic attempts at being an intellectual.

Good-day.

@cynical thought

Wow another psychologist, so you also diagnose religion as being a disorder. So in your narrow world view the billions who (out number non-religious 5:1) should be on meds?? Since you are the minority in this world maybe it is you who should be on the meds.

But you have taken it one step further, now it’s a neurological problem. Okay so if it is truly neurological like you believe, then believers have no other choice but to believe. Like say we can’t choose the color of our skin. That makes your ignorance all the more disgusting. LOL, keep digging yourself out of that hole boy.

Small factions of staff and students at higher learning institutions can pump out pulp that might be “good reads” to you, but it is just drivel, the whole premise of these books are to debunk religion…something that hasn’t been done in the history of man. These same universities UCLA, you mentioned have extensive religious studies program, that do nothing but pay respect to religion.

http://www.religion.ucla.edu/

Well your posts don’t go into much else except patting yourselves on the back. I’ll wait for you to respond to my last post.

But again if religious people and no-religious people are a victim of their own biology like you suggest, how do you rationalize treating them harshly and dismissing them?

I don’t agree with this at all, but let us just say you are right, since we are in the majority maybe we should institutionalize you, or better yet have another inquisition??

@sweepya

You have no logic, all you do is rant on and on about why you must be right.

Yes I am educated in the scientific method, yes I did study electrical engineering in college. The thing about God is you don’t need the scientific method to prove his existence; you should be able to see it in a cloud or your lover’s eyes. That’s something that doesn’t compute with you huh? I’m starting to think you have a neurological disorder.

“And as far as your references go, they don't mean anything to any of us.”

Francis Bacon, Newton, Robert Boyle, Faraday, Kelvin, Plank….they mean nothing to you? And you say you are a student of science?? LMAO you ignoramus, these are the fathers of modern science; you probably don’t even know who they are. Read their biographies’ and learn something for once.

And I love this..

“He fucked around with pea plants and discovered variations in offspring”

God, words can’t explain how ignorant this statement is…I suggest you read his bio as well. He laid the ground work for modern genetics, even darwin referenced his work. He was the one who came up with the double helix model, the amino acid and protein codes yytc etc. (I’m talking about genes)

Only a true simpleton like yourself could look at such works and say “he fucked with peas”…OMG I am sad for you…you have exposed yourself as a fool. I guess newton “fucked with apples” and Tesla “fucked with light bulbs” SMH

Religious people can and do and will continue to make contributions to science, our religion has nothing to do with our work, we can separate that from our personal belief system. Call it an un-unified theory…LOL….but you are an idiot and I feel like I’m wasting my jokes on you.

“I think you're just an apologetic nerd”

Well at least you had a thought, I am a nerd but not apologetic.

For the last time, my belief in God did not come as a result of using the scientific method and doing experiments..LOL, it is something that you feel in your soul. That’s why it’s so baffling for you, cause you deny that you have one. I love the way you all act like I’m a minority…here in my office out of 50 people not 1 is an atheist, my cousin is a PHD student, she is religious, the president of the U.S is religious, like wtf, bow down to your superiors. My ex is a lawyer, she believes in God, my wife is a chemical engineer and comes from a family of chemical engineers. We can separate the scientific world from the spiritual world. Just because your foul mind cannot don’t for a second think you can degrade our beleifs..because you will be put in your place like I just did. Now bow down!

Also I have been a subscriber of popsci for years, I have only recently jumped onto their site, it’s quite interesting to see how you kids are herded…I think I’ll stay if that’s all right with you, actually it doesn’t matter what you think, you are a nobody.

Also, you can write back to me if you repent. :-D

@cynical thought (or lack thereof)

look on the back of your money "IN GOD WE TRUST" every time you spend money you are praying to God. HAHAHA

The president is sworn in on a bible.

Every court proceeding has bible present.

This society was founded by Christians, and our religion is a part of the most important aspects of OUR society. If you don't like it, don't get mad like a child..just get used to it.

Religion is an indispensable part of society, yours is an eccentric set, a sub-culture, that will never have an effect.

Religion has been around since the beginning of history and beyond, you are a minority with a self admitted neurological disorder. You and your kin will never change that. So give it up, what you are selling is sewage.

You have become an unwitting pawn in the great deception.

Oppenheimer respected the beauty of the Vedas and of spirituality...he even quoted it upon the detonation of the first nuclear bomb. Your small closed mind cannot even acknowledge the Vedas. (It's the largest work of prose in literature) See the wonders religion inspires? What does your lack of belief inspire..to survive? To eat sh!t and breed?? That's a pathetic life.

Also you said "without happiness we would not survive" OMG you have unwittingly subscribed to my thesis that the purpose of life is to be happy...because in your mind life is survival...but survival cannot be achieved w/o happiness.

Keep digging boy.

@Aldron's Last Hope (Aldron's last brain cell?)

"Wow another psychologist, so you also diagnose religion as being a disorder."

Ha. In every way.

"Since you are the minority in this world maybe it is you who should be on the meds."

There are probably fewer psychiatrists in the world than there are mental patients, it really doesn't make a difference who the majority is if the majority is wrong.

"Okay so if it is truly neurological like you believe, then believers have no other choice but to believe. Like say we can’t choose the color of our skin. That makes your ignorance all the more disgusting."

Pathetic logic trap. No one ever said anything about persecuting or enslaving religious people. The study refers to extremists and fundamtalists anyway - you know - the ones who join popular science websites and engage in pointless arguments with atheists and refuse to shut up? Oh yes, and people like Fred Phelps. The point is to isolate the problematic chemical imbalance that occurs when people rely on irrational faith and help them to see things more realistically. At any rate, its hasn't even been proven yet, I was discussing theory with a fellow student of the mind. No need for you to butt in, but I guess that is what you're good at.

"Small factions of staff and students at higher learning institutions can pump out pulp that might be “good reads” to you, but it is just drivel, the whole premise of these books are to debunk religion…"

As opposed to the books you read which only seem to advocate religious belief? At least the books we read include scientific facts and research. Listen Gramps, you can stop with the "I've seen it all, I've done it all" sharade. No one cares about you or your accomplishments. The grad students and professors of higher institutions which you seem to enjoy denegrating are the ones who shape this world. Not uneducated buffoons like you. You studied electrical engineering? And you dare to try and match wits with students of psychology and philosophy? Give me a break.

Thanks for providing everyone a link to the Center For Religious Study at UCLA, which everyone is already familiar with. They provide an *academic* understanding of religion and if you don't know what that means I won't bother explaining it to you. Everyone in my social circle would be snickering however.

"look on the back of your money "IN GOD WE TRUST" every time you spend money you are praying to God. HAHAHA"

Just keep laughing you senile old fool. Ever heard of Dr. Michael Newdow? He is petitioning to have that disgusting phrase removed from our currency as well as that glorified toilet rag banned from court rooms. He succeeded with the revision of the Pledge of Allegiance, so there is no reason to assume he won't be just as successful with his subsequent projects. Its a systematic process, and much like the banning of prayer in public schools and the removal of intelligent design arguments from science courses, this too shall pass in time.

"You have become an unwitting pawn in the great deception."

The great deception? Is this something your Bible teaches you? Well you know what they say, I'd rather be a master in Hell than a servant in Heaven. All the great minds will be there anyway. :)

"What does your lack of belief inspire..to survive? To eat sh!t and breed?? That's a pathetic life"

Atheism inspires us to appreciate the life we have instead of preparing for a life beyond death which is nonexistent. I look forward to the technological advancements provided by science and I find meaning in the power they give humanity over nature. I wish to prolong my life and preserve my own genetic material just as any organism would. Your ideological narcissism only brings ruin to intellectual progress and seeks to impede scientific advancement in order to keep humanity in the dark ages. We don't look at a leaf and say magical fairies inhabit the stem causing it to absorb light and grow, we call the process photosynthesis because we understand the underlying biological processes. You are asking us to look at the complex mystery of the human brain and call it a soul. You're just as ignorant as the medieval church scholars you keep praising.

Happiness is conducive to survival but we cannot survive with happiness alone. Survival is the ultimate goal and this is why we should seek to help humankind populate and thrive and turn our interests spaceward. We will only do this by undermining and removing religion from society so liberal progressivism can flourish.

Here's your shovel grandpa now start digging your own ditch.

The three inalienable truths:

The Universe is infinite.
Existence is essential.
The only purpose in life is survival.

@cynical thought (or lack thereof)

"Ha. In every way."

Just know we feel the same way, you suffer from a deficiency, you cannot contemplate extra-dimensions

"There are probably fewer psychiatrists in the world than there are mental patients, it really doesn't make a difference who the majority is if the majority is wrong."

That's a very obtuse analogy. There are more law abiding citizens than criminals, that's because as a society we have come to a general consensus as to what is right and what is wrong. Just like as a society we believe in a higher purpose. You are slow.

""Okay so if it is truly neurological like you believe, then believers have no other choice but to believe. Like say we can’t choose the color of our skin. That makes your ignorance all the more disgusting."

"Pathetic logic trap. No one ever said anything about persecuting or enslaving religious people."

You are right I am using logic (something you have not demonstrated). It's not pathetic though, it is true, I'm showing you the fallacy of your arguments. You are saying that the religious have a neurological disorder, then out the other side of your mouth you say they will burn in an ash heap. You have mild schizophrenia.

Also you were the one who butt in to my conversation, I didn't mind cause I like educating you. LOL

"You studied electrical engineering? And you dare to try and match wits with students of psychology and philosophy? Give me a break."

LMAO You are no philosopher my friend. Far from it, you have said nothing profound. Psychology? Don't make me laugh. Match wits?? OMG not on your best day sonny.

"Just keep laughing you senile old fool. Ever heard of Dr. Michael Newdow? He is petitioning to have that disgusting phrase removed from our currency as well as that glorified toilet rag banned from court rooms."

LOL I'm 32 y/o....you will always raise your hand and show respect to the bible in the courts...IN GOD WE TRUST (can you spare $5) HAHAHA

"The great deception? Is this something your Bible teaches you? Well you know what they say, I'd rather be a master in Hell than a servant in Heaven. All the great minds will be there anyway. :)"

Funny how atheists gravitate towards satanisim. You should be on meds.

"Here's your shovel grandpa now start digging your own ditch. "

You are such a BITER!! LOL

@Aldron's Last Hope (Aldron's last brain cell?)

"Just know we feel the same way, you suffer from a deficiency, you cannot contemplate extra-dimensions "

I don't care how you feel about me, that wasn't the point.

"That's a very obtuse analogy. There are more law abiding citizens than criminals, that's because as a society we have come to a general consensus as to what is right and what is wrong. Just like as a society we believe in a higher purpose. You are slow."

But still faster than you I see. The majority of the people don't make the laws in our society, we delegate that privilege to an elected few. The majority of people in Sweden are atheist or agnostic with only 23% believing in god. Several Western European countires follow the same trend. Do you think they were always that way? No it was the evolution of their public education system which changed social awareness and societal understanding. Stop pretending the majority of the world is theist. The fact is the majority of the world does what the elite tell them to, and soon this country will be singing to a different tune so long as the realm of education belongs to the atheists - which it has ever since the Church lost power. This isn't the Dark Ages. No scholar fears religious retribution. Why do you think religion is losing ground and being separated from politics and removed from public schools?

"You have mild schizophrenia."

I'm honestly surprised you know how to spell Schizophrenia.

"LOL I'm 32 y/o....you will always raise your hand and show respect to the bible in the courts...IN GOD WE TRUST (can you spare $5) HAHAHA"

Do you punctuate your sentences with "lol" and "hahaha" because you are really laughing maniacally in your computer chair? If so... seek help. Or do you think you're making anyone think what I said was ridiculous and playing down my points? Or perhaps you're trying to frustrate me? The psychological tricks aren't going to work on me idiot. I'd suggest trying harder. In any case I only started calling you grandpa to goad you into telling me your age, which you did. Now that I know, I have to admit, I'm more than amused by your previous comments. Rest assured we won't always raise our hands to the Bible, and you can rest assured that even those who do, don't necessarily respect it (I keep a bible on the floor to keep my door propped open, it does have some use).

"Funny how atheists gravitate towards satanisim. You should be on meds."

Funny how theists always draw up the comparison. I don't believe in Satan, so I'm not sure how I could gravitate toward the delusional belief in it. With any luck the "meds" you're speaking about will be distributed to the people who are deluded enough to think heaven or hell are real and then try to villify atheists with such heinous libel. Modest estimate? Sometime in the next half a century. Brace yourself.

The three inalienable truths:

The Universe is infinite.
Existence is essential.
The only purpose in life is survival.

"You have no logic, all you do is rant on and on about why you must be right."

I'm not ranting about anything. I'm letting you in on academic secrets.
Also, quit with the insult attempts at each member. You begin each post with saying we have no thought or logic. When you try to insult us you just look like a cornered child who just starts spouting curse words they heard their parents use.

"Yes I am educated in the scientific method, yes I did study electrical engineering in college. The thing about God is you don’t need the scientific method to prove his existence; you should be able to see it in a cloud or your lover’s eyes. That’s something that doesn’t compute with you huh? I’m starting to think you have a neurological disorder."

It's called rationality and I feel like you just aren't capable of understanding any of this.

"Francis Bacon, Newton, Robert Boyle, Faraday, Kelvin, Plank….they mean nothing to you? And you say you are a student of science?? LMAO you ignoramus, these are the fathers of modern science; you probably don’t even know who they are. Read their biographies’ and learn something for once."

Oh okay, I'm sure you've read all of their biographies.
I was speaking of the biased websites you've been referencing. THEY mean nothing to us. Like Cynical has stated the pressures of the church have just placed 'beliefs' on scientists to make their work seem harmless to beliefs of the masses. Fooled you.

I would go as far as saying Richard Feynman is the most brilliant man to walk the earth. Hawking and many great minds alike often even reference Feynman in their work. I've read both of Feynman's autobiographies. Feynman was not god-fearing and Feynman was not a religious man.

"And I love this..
“He fucked around with pea plants and discovered variations in offspring”
God, words can’t explain how ignorant this statement is…I suggest you read his bio as well. He laid the ground work for modern genetics, even darwin referenced his work. He was the one who came up with the double helix model, the amino acid and protein codes yytc etc. (I’m talking about genes)"

You misunderstood because you're looking for flaws in my writing. You obviously aren't aware that Mendel had no idea of the greatness he discovered. He fucked around with pea plants and discovered variation in coming generations but he had no idea why they were different and his theories were even deviants of the true science behind it.

I said good-day.

@Cynical Thought actually no I don't usually Lmao when I'm reading or replying to posts....but your posts have been exceptionally funny. You are very closed minded....and you contradict yourself. Your whole argument is based on putting down religious people....when we are the ones who built this society. Don't pretend to be a philosopher, when all you do is radiate ignorance. The line about calling the bible worthless ragscomes to mind. I know you are only doing this because you are onlune, in reality you have to show respect. While in reality I can speak the truth about the emptiness of atheism and everyone agrees.

I've mentioned my age more than once on here...you couldn't goad me inro eating an ice cream Sunday. I threw you a bone. Lmao!

You said hypothetically you'd rather be in hell. This is what I'm talking about...every time I call you on somerhing you back track and contradict yourself.

Academics are not necessarily professionals. They spend their whole lifw on campus, not in the field. In the real world ...it is very diverse, people from all over, most of whom belive in God. We are the ones pushing OUR society forward. The eccentric profs can preach atheism all they want, we don't care, we take what's important and move on.

You are right the laws are created by the elected. Now why do you suppose most congress, senators, presidents etc. are all god fearing?? It's because they represent their riding......and we the people will not elect heathens.

Christianity, Islam, Buddhists etc. Have been around a long time...and we will always be the majority....you will always,be a cult. You mentioned Sweden? Sweden has a population of 10 million. 76% belive in the soul. Look it up. Now let's compare that with China, India ...Billions of belivers. You don't have a leg to stand on. Only a wet dream that "one day" the world will see it your way...lol I got news for you..if you can follow trends , it's plain to see....we will always be here...in government, in finance, in the military, in industry. Give it up, resistance in your case is futile.

Breathing is essential.

@Sweepya

Insult members? Please go back and read this thread. I was totally respectful until I was attacked. Now you can't stand your own medicine and you're crying to me about it? Boo hoo :-(

Richard Feynman was a genius. I don't hold his religious beliefs against him. Besides it had nothing to do with his work.

Conscious thought is more than just a biological process. Consciousness permeates and surrounds this plain of existence.

In the big bang scenario every thing in the universe was at some point one. That means everything from the cigarette on the curb to the most beautiful nebula...were one in the same. Some people think we are amoeba. Well compared to the universe our milky way is an amoeba. The point is thought trumps mass. How can you think you are a god and an amoeba? Your premises are flawed.

We are divine entities, capable of complex thought, not because of ransom evolution....but because of intelligent design.

You like to pretend that thought comes from biological processes. When any physicist well tell you the phenomenon is beyond explanation. Look that up. Also statistically speaking, the chances that we evolved into what we are 100 trillion : 1 Like come on be realistic, something had a hand in our development and all life from inception.

Thought created energy. Chew on that.

Please tell your friend Cynical that the universe is finite....even the multi-verse has only 11 possible dimensions. Epic collective fail

Namaste

@Aldrons Last Hope,

"You are right the laws are created by the elected. Now why do you suppose most congress, senators, presidents etc. are all god fearing?? It's because they represent their riding......and we the people will not elect heathens."

I have an idea for you to consider:

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful" - Seneca.

;)

@ALH,

"We are divine entities, capable of complex thought, not because of ransom[sic] evolution....but because of intelligent design."

Then, the designer must be capable of even more complex thought that we. So... is it not also the case that this must be because he was also intelligently designed?

If so, who designed God? A super-God? If so... Super-God must be yet still more complex, and therefore designed by an even more complex designer... (this can go on forever).

If you say, "well no, God created himself"... then why can't I say that I created myself?

@Cynical Thought,

"The answer to these questions (as we atheists know) would of course be to simply, think rationally."

I'm especially interested in the whole birth of rational thinking. Just from the structure of the brain it seems likely that "rationality" as a decision engine is younger in terms of evolution than "emotion" as a decision engine.

But it's definitely apparent that the younger part is NOT completely separate from the older parts as the inputs from the senses have to partially travel through the old parts of the brain.

I've often found myself wondering exactly what "rational" means and how people often "rationalize" things for the sole purpose of satisfying their emotional needs.

I'm definitely very interested in the connection between rationale and emotions...

I do know about Sam Harris, though I have not read his books yet.

@ALH,

" you want to discuss the mindset of a believer and the first thing you do is make ignorant, vile statements. Are you are that incapable of being civil?"

I think if you scroll up you will easily see that the "first thing" I did was make civil inquiries.

The problem--and it's a common one for 'believers'--is that the simple QUESTIONING of the belief triggers the fight/flight response.

Simply someone asking you "why this, why that?" is perceived as an attack, as disrespect, as something to be avoided through "winning" and thus, ending, (and stopping) current and future questions.

You can easily see evidence of this in your responses which you fill with personal attacks instead of explanations for how you came to believe the things you do, or why, after careful examination you have decided to believe them.

I can only conclude that the reason for this is because you have NOT examined your own belief system, nor are you actually aware of the process by which you formed the beliefs.

So... continuing to question you would be akin to questioning a dog about why it sits when it is told... it's more productive to poke and prod the dog and try to piece together the functionality.

@ ALH,

"Also statistically speaking, the chances that we evolved into what we are 100 trillion : 1 Like come on be realistic, something had a hand in our development and all life from inception."

Do you know how many solar systems there are in the universe?

Even given your un-referenced "statistics" it's more than probable that not only we evovled into what we are, but MANY other beings have also evolved throughout the various environments in the universe...

"Insult members? Please go back and read this thread. I was totally respectful until I was attacked. Now you can't stand your own medicine and you're crying to me about it? Boo hoo :-("

When we insult you it makes sense because you're ACTUALLY an idiot.

"Richard Feynman was a genius. I don't hold his religious beliefs against him. Besides it had nothing to do with his work."

Astro and quantum physics kind of has a say in your whole creationism theories.

"Conscious thought is more than just a biological process. Consciousness permeates and surrounds this plain of existence."

You're an electrical engineer. You know nothing about the mind. When you blab nonsense like that you're just digging your hole deeper.

"In the big bang scenario every thing in the universe was at some point one. That means everything from the cigarette on the curb to the most beautiful nebula...were one in the same. Some people think we are amoeba. Well compared to the universe our milky way is an amoeba. The point is thought trumps mass. How can you think you are a god and an amoeba? Your premises are flawed."

It's a bit more complex than a black whole spitting out cigarettes and nebulas. Don't try to simplify one of the most intricate occurrences.
I don't think I'm a god and I don't think I'm an amoeba.

"We are divine entities, capable of complex thought, not because of ransom evolution....but because of intelligent design.
You like to pretend that thought comes from biological processes. When any physicist well tell you the phenomenon is beyond explanation. Look that up. Also statistically speaking, the chances that we evolved into what we are 100 trillion : 1 Like come on be realistic, something had a hand in our development and all life from inception."

I'm trying to understand what words you tried to implement correctly. From what I gather you don't believe in evolution. It holds more truth and evidence than your creationist theories. There's a reason why you'll find evolution in science text books and not creationism. Thoughts ARE nothing more than biological processes and physicists will agree. The best one to ever live did at least. I'm not sure where you're getting your information from.

Look up Abiogenesis. It'll help you understand how it all began.

"Thought created energy. Chew on that.
Please tell your friend Cynical that the universe is finite....even the multi-verse has only 11 possible dimensions. Epic collective fail"

Thought did not create energy. Energy is not created, only transformed. 1st law of thermodynamics.
I don't believe the universe is finite so why would I tell an independent and intelligent person something false like that?

Your entire argument is based on other people believing something so it must be true. You're a simple human being who substitutes independent thought with nebulous group-think.

Here read this. It'll take 2 minutes to read and you'll see just how flawed your argument is.

www.huffingtonpost.com/nigel-barber/why-atheism-to-replace-re_b_903653.html

This is my last post. @BV @Cynical, thanks for the laughs and great reads.

@B.V

Yes I agree with that statement, except the “wise as false”. I know many wise people that believe in the soul. For the down trodden masses it represents hope and it’s a source of strength. For the rulers it is an opiate a measure of control. Whatever it is perceived to be, the fact remains it is still there, it is what it is. George Bush can wage the Our God v Their God war, doesn’t make him right. Someone with an illness can refuse treatment because they believe God will save them, doesn’t make them right either. In fact they both are wrong. People try to use religion to smooth out the corners in their lives, or to push fourth agendas, this gives it a bad name / rep. Like a car in your drive way, you can use it to run over squirrels or drink and drive, do the groceries or deliver meals to the poor. Doesn’t make the car good or bad, it is what it is.

“Then, the designer must be capable of even more complex thought that we. So... is it not also the case that this must be because he was also intelligently designed? If so, who designed God? A super-God? If so... Super-God must be yet still more complex, and therefore designed by an even more complex designer... (this can go on forever).If you say, "well no, God created himself"... then why can't I say that I created myself?”

I see what you are saying. Yes obviously God is capable of more complex thought, we are limited by our minds…(we can only use 10%). What if life is conscious thought manifesting itself in this spatial dimension. There must be some force forcing those amino acids an proteins together forming complex geometric patterns we call the building blocks of life, it’s impossible that that happened randomly.
We were created by a being from a higher dimension. It’s plausible that a being from an even higher dimension created our creator. I’m using the word “being” very loosely…it’s not a him or her, it may not even be physical it may very well be the forces of good and evil, light and dark. Ying and Yang. Where does it end? I don’t know, but everything with an end has a beginning. Doesn’t say anything about that in the Bible, I’m just speculating because I am curious. My fellow Christians might think I’m going to hell for saying that, but I’m a moderate and I look at all religion and connect the one thing we all have in common and that’s a belief in a creator.
We are advancing in science; the technology exists today where you could create a version of yourself via cloning. As for creating yourself as you are right now, don’t think that is possible because we exist in this physical plane and we have to abide by the rules of time.

@B.V this is what I’m talking about just when I think you are going to be civil, you start acting like a self righteous ass again.

“So... continuing to question you would be akin to questioning a dog about why it sits when it is told... it's more productive to poke and prod the dog and try to piece together the functionality.”
You are probably use to playing with pugs, but you poke and prod a pitbull you’ll get your throat ripped out. You like being a smartass to get a rise out of people, but all you are doing is painting yourself as an egotistical, self righteous, sociopath.
“Even given your un-referenced "statistics" it's more than probable that not only we evolved into what we are, but MANY other beings have also evolved throughout the various environments in the universe...
Let me re-phrase, it’s statistically impossible that random events lead us here.

@ALH,

"What if life is conscious thought manifesting itself in this spatial dimension."

This is a fundamentally different tone, as it starts with "what if" instead of "This is the way things are".

"What if" games are fun! Though they should not be represented as 'facts'.

If you preface all of your claims with "maybe" or 'what if' then we won't have any semantic problems.

--

"There must be some force forcing those amino acids an proteins together forming complex geometric patterns we call the building blocks of life, it’s impossible that that happened randomly."

Well... the forces are the forces known to science. I guess you could claim "these forces are God!"

So then gravity is God, magnetism is God, etc. If you define "God" to mean that, then scientists are only trying to enhance their understanding of God...

If you define the word "God" to refer to the fundamental forces of nature, then sure, "God created man".

But what's the point of these word games? We already have a word for nature--it's "nature". We already have a word for reality--it's reality. We already have a word for existence--it's existence.

What is the purpose of redefining the word God (which has lots of other meanings) to mean nature/natural forces/reality/existence/etc.?

---

IF you actually refer to the forces of nature when you say "God", then perhaps you would be more accurate in referring to yourself as a Hindu than a Christian. Hinduism is VERY open to interpretation and allows for the possibility of all the deities to actually be forces of nature--and even the 'set' of these forces to be a deity itself.

But I'd say we already have a word for that as well: concept.

It doesn't have to be a "god of gravity" or a "God, which is gravity" it can simply be this:

"a concept of gravity"

"a concept of the concept of gravity"

etc.

@Sweep my floor
“When we insult you it makes sense because you're ACTUALLY an idiot”

Right back at you, you entered this conversation, and you quickly degenerated into a name calling child HAHAHA
“You're an electrical engineer. You know nothing about the mind. When you blab nonsense like that you're just digging your hole deeper”
First off you are a Biter, second how do you know what I know or who I converse with? Or what books I read? Hyperbolic space is an actual fact. Look it up.
“It's a bit more complex than a black whole spitting out cigarettes and nebulas. Don't try to simplify one of the most intricate occurrences.
I don't think I'm a god and I don't think I'm an amoeba.”
So you deny that at one point all matter was condensed to one single point? The big bang happened when god snapped his fingers.
“I'm trying to understand what words you tried to implement correctly. From what I gather you don't believe in evolution. It holds more truth and evidence than your creationist theories. There's a reason why you'll find evolution in science text books and not creationism. Thoughts ARE nothing more than biological processes and physicists will agree. The best one to ever live did at least. I'm not sure where you're getting your information from. “
*random, I’m using my phone. Wrong again though, look into theoretical physics and the origin of thought it’s more than a simple biological process.
“Look up Abiogenesis. It'll help you understand how it all began.”
Yeah I don’t believe in that garbage, it’s just speculation, a bunch of devil worshipers grasping at straws, it has never been observed or duplicated. Give me a break…FAIL
“Thought did not create energy. Energy is not created, only transformed. 1st law of thermodynamics.
I don't believe the universe is finite so why would I tell an independent and intelligent person something false like that?”
Energy can not be created or destroyed from this dimension, but it does originate from the 4 dimension. Look up double torus universe, it will help you understand that the universe is finite and energy is delivered to us via higher dimensions.
Sorry I don’t read that propaganda publication. That’s left wing drivel. Even Obama plugged them while he was addressing the nation. FAIL
Oh you’re leaving…where’s my good-bye? I gave your life purpose and this is what I get?? Well good riddance to bad rubbish don’t come back. (although I bet you will)

@ALH,

"Let me re-phrase, it’s statistically impossible that random events lead us here."

What do you define as random?

In my view, the socially popular word "random" depends on the observer. For instance, if I look out the window, the car driving by is "random" for me, but it's NOT a random car to the person driving it.

I might order a #2 when I get lunch, which is a very deliberate decision for me, but it's a random order to the cashier ringing it up (i.e. the order was decided outside of their consciousness).

When I toss a coin, the outcome is "random" to me. However, perhaps a high-speed motion capture camera with a very powerful neural network for analyzing the video feed might be able to calculate the flipping/trajectory of the coin in order to predict the outcome while the coin is still in the air... thus the coin-flip is not random to it.

In terms of quantum physics, the word "random" has a specific meaning. But you can look that up yourself and read up about it more.

@ALH,

"We were created by a being from a higher dimension. It’s plausible that a being from an even higher dimension created our creator...Where does it end? I don’t know, but everything with an end has a beginning."

Well, I think even Richard Dawkins would accept this.

I think humans have only come up with 2 possible explanations for the existence a "creator":

1) someone created it
2) it was created through the nature of the universe (the forces/etc.)

Basically, since option 1 is subject to the infinite recursion problem (i.e. who created the creator of the creator, ad inifinitum.), many have chosen to subscribe to option 2 (typically these people refer to themselves as athiests, or agnostics, or secular humanists, etc.).

So, even if an advanced creator made humans/the earth/etc., and that creator was created by an even more advanced creator... the "first" creator came about through the natural forces and laws of the universe (or, perhaps even some super-verse).

Whatever those laws/forces/events WERE that resulted in the formation of the 'first creator' are apparently "random" from out perspective.

But... if you accept this, then what is the need for the long string of "creators" in "some set of laws/forces/events resulting in the formation of the creator of humans"? It's not a very far stretch to say, "well, given no empirical evidence for a whole lineage of these creators... and given that there IS empirical evidence of Humans, it seems simplest to conclude that we are the result of some mysterious forces of this universe (or some other super-universe)"

And, the best we can hope for is to explore and try to understand these forces and see what they reveal about the nature of our existence.

If the exploration of these forces reveals a set of 100 creators-of-creators-of-creators before humans are created... okay, fine.

But, as of now, we can't say that's the case since we have no evidence. Therefore, to assert that there IS a creator with 100% certitude is less than honest. The likelihood of "a creator" is the same as the likelihood of "a dozen creators" or "a hundred creators".

Why commit to one possibility when all are equally probable and proclaim there was ONE creator?

@B.V

Random
Statistics . of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

If you look at what our species is and what is capable off, I believe it is a statistical impossibility that we arrived here from a “soup”. If that was the case why haven’t they been able to duplicate it? They we have the amino acids, we should be able to re-create conditions 1 billion years ago. But no nothing, this should be easy to prove. Whatever force caused those acids to bond into proteins, then evolve was not so random. I agree that there is no such thing as random, everything is connected.

There are a hundred identical mirrors, and a mechanical arm throws an identical stone, with identical, force as to duplicate identical velocity and force on impact. That mirror will shatter randomly 100 different ways. In quantum physics I can say that there is a “hidden variable”, therefore nothing is random.

I actually had to converse about this with a very religious co-worker. Unfortunately the answer I got was that “In the Beginning there was God” lol, not a great answer. Unfortunately this is a pill we have to swallow, that there was nothing but God before God created everything. I find similarities with this answer and the paradox of the big bang theory. If energy cannot be created, what exactly was the catalyst of the big bang? Because the Big bang did not only create energy, it created the space time continuum and all the phenomena of nature (speed of light, gravity etc.)

” If the exploration of these forces reveals a set of 100 creators-of-creators-of-creators before humans are created... okay, fine. But, as of now, we can't say that's the case since we have no evidence. Therefore, to assert that there IS a creator with 100% certitude is less than honest. The likelihood of "a creator" is the same as the likelihood of "a dozen creators" or "a hundred creators". Why commit to one possibility when all are equally probable and proclaim there was ONE creator?”

I’m going to venture into the hypothetical and say that because we are stuck in this dimension, lets deal with the creator of this dimension for now.

We all experience conscious thought. We can close our eyes and imagine something and then through work make that thing happen. So we know thought is important. We all feel emotion. So called chemical reactions that can influence our actions. We know that the majority of people on earth believe in the soul. Even if they are Gnostic they are open to the possibility because they don’t know. Now why in the world are all these people who are capable of thought suffer from a delusion on such a massive scale down through history?

My answer is it’s not a delusion. Life itself may be conscious thought manifesting itself in this plane. Struggling to form in such a way to express itself. The world WAS a pretty big place, and everyone who experienced this wrote it down. If you look at religions they all have different stories, from giant turtles, warring gods, elephant headed deities, or an all knowing, all powerful father figure. They may all seem different, but they are all trying to convey the same message, this world (universe) was created with an intelligent design in mind. And that each life has purpose because we are all connected.

I’ve mentioned extra dimensions…here is one example of why I think we are living in a holographic fractal universe. Saturn is relatively very far from the sun. It receives very little energy from the sun. Not enough to sustain the types of things we see going on there. There are storms ragging there with 300 k/m / hr winds….storms as large as the earth. Where is the energy coming from to sustain all of these things going on, on Saturn? Also there is a giant hexagon on the north pole as seen by cassini. The hexagon is 3 earth diameters on each side….and is formed by wind. Modern science cannot explain this, not NASA, not anyone, and it’s there glaring in everyone’s faces. I suggest that Saturn is receiving energy from the 4th dimension which is leaving the imprint of a 3D hexagon on the planet’s surface. We see how frequency influences the formation of snow flakes, and how different frequencies can for different patterned snowflakes. We see that a bucket of spinning water form geometric patterns. This lends credence to my theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn

@ALH,

"If you look at what our species is and what is capable off, I believe it is a statistical impossibility that we arrived here from a “soup”. If that was the case why haven’t they been able to duplicate it? They we have the amino acids, we should be able to re-create conditions 1 billion years ago. But no nothing, this should be easy to prove. "

The biggest problem is that it's VERY hard to try and guess what the conditions on earth were like when life formed (it's even hard to guess exactly where this happened--we don't have fossils of the first thing ever that was alive).

Scientists have been able to create amino acids from lab simulations of the conditions thought to have existed on earth (from observing other forming moons/planets).

We can easily create all of the amino acids in a lab under perfect conditions--the problem is that the earth was not a labratory with perfect conditions.

Furthermore, it is also possible that not all amino acids WERE formed on earth. Some could have arrived by way of meteors smashing into the Earth... if that's the case the conditions under which THOSE amino acids formed are even MORE mysterious as they came from the depths of space somewhere...

---

"I agree that there is no such thing as random, everything is connected."

Einstein held the belief that "God doesn't roll the dice" when it came to matters of "random" (i.e. probabalistic) events in the universe.

However, as best as we can tell, the perceivable phenomenon at a quantum level is "random".

Until we can form models or perceive some other dimensions in which these particles are interacting in deterministic ways, we have to call them "random".

---

"I’m going to venture into the hypothetical and say that because we are stuck in this dimension, lets deal with the creator of this dimension for now."

Is your claim not that the creator of humans is outside of the dimensions humans are capable of perceiving and interacting with?

Or is your view of God one in which he occupies space/time and is composed of matter?

---

"Unfortunately the answer I got was that “In the Beginning there was God” lol, not a great answer. Unfortunately this is a pill we have to swallow, that there was nothing but God before God created everything. I find similarities with this answer and the paradox of the big bang theory. If energy cannot be created, what exactly was the catalyst of the big bang? Because the Big bang did not only create energy, it created the space time continuum and all the phenomena of nature (speed of light, gravity etc.)"

Firstly, it is NOT a pill we have to swallow. We can just say "Well, I don't really know, but I think MAYBE..." and that doesn't require the swallowing of anything.

Secondly, if there was nothing but God, then what did God use to create the Universe? Seems like the only "materials" around would be God...

If that's the case, then everything he created was from himself. In essence, you are partly God, I am partly God, Satan is partly God, etc. (This poses a huge problem when it comes to dualistic notions of good and evil... since "evil" people are cut from the fabric of God, and ideas like unholy sin lose meaning).

---

"We all feel emotion. So called chemical reactions that can influence our actions. "

In fact, not all of us DO feel emotions. Here is just ONE mental disorder where this is a symptom: http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Schizoid-personality-disorder.html

The reason scientists claim that emotions are driven through electro-chemical processes in the brain is BECAUSE of examining sick people and their brains. It's not cause some "heathen scientist" woke up one day and decided to undermine religious doctrine.

It's because after doing empirical study of the brain and it's activity and the chemicals involved, scientist can feed chemicals to a bi-polar person and let them experience emotions (instead of drilling holes in their skulls to let the evil spirits out) or treating them as sub-human and soulless beings not worthy of compassionate treatment and respect.

---

"Life itself may be conscious thought manifesting itself in this plane. Struggling to form in such a way to express itself. "

It's an interesting concept, but one that is quite testable. I can consciously think things which I fail to manifest. I can think "apple apple apple APPLE!" and never manifest an apple.

Also, I am helpless when it comes to de-manifesting things that I do not want (such as cancer, or a flu, or a bullet).

---

"Modern science cannot explain this, not NASA, not anyone, and it’s there glaring in everyone’s faces. I suggest that Saturn is receiving energy from the 4th dimension which is leaving the imprint of a 3D hexagon on the planet’s surface."

Okay, fine. You can suggest this theory... now come up with an experiment to test it. (or, even a mathematical proof that can be used to support your theory).

You can't say "well, I get a tingling feeling that my theory seems right" because a Schizoid won't get a tingling feeling about your theory, and I might get a tingling feeling about a completely different theory (that it's actually receiving energy from the 7th dimension).

What's the utility of these theories other than to soothe the discomfort of "not knowing" stuff?

@B.V.

You might be interested in reading The God Delusion (if you haven't already). Here is a quote from Richard Dawkins himself:

"...the designer himself (herself/itself) immediately rasies the bigger problem of his own origin. Any entity capable of intelligently designing something as improbable as a dutchman's pipe (or a universe) would have to be even more improbable than a Dutchman's Pipe. Far from terminating the infinite regress, God aggravates it with a vengeance." R. Dawkins, The God Delusion p. 146

Also:

"Creationist 'logic' is always the same. Some natural phenomenon is too statistically improbable, too complex, too beautiful, too awe-inspiring to have come into existence by chance. Design is the only alternative to chance that authors can imagine. Therefore a designer must have done it. And science's answer to this faulty logic is also always the same. Design is not the only alternative to chance. Natural selection is a better alternative. Indeed, design is not a real alternative at all because it raises an even bigger problem than it solves: who designed the designer? Chance and design both fail as solutions to the problem of statistical improbability, because one of them is the problem, and the other one regresses to it. Natural selection is the real solution." R. Dawkins, The God Delusion, pp. 146-147

A perfect "designer" must be biologically more complex than the organisms that were supposedly designed by it. Because the design argument revolves around the improbability of such complex organisms simply coming into being the same argument can be made about the even more complex organism (the designer) coming into being as its existence would be even more improbable than ours. Ergo, as evidence has suggested, all organisms must evolve via the process of gene mutation.

Throughout his book he offers some other excellent refutations of popular theological arguments on the existence of god, such as the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

Going back to our earlier conversation, I believe the question of "levels" of the human brain capable of rational thought can be answered by looking at the process of evolution. We came from simple organisms, essentially our brain developed in layers. I have heard it put this way: a primate brain, over a mammalian brain, over a reptilian brain. The reptilian brain represents our base desires, the mamallian brain represents our herd instinct and emotions (bears can get angry, but can also be affectionate) and our primate brain represents our need for social interaction, and the act of sex as recreation as opposed to reproduction (which has been observed in Bonobo ape societies). More recently the human aspect of our brain represents more complex patterns of thought and decision making. I think we are still in the process of evolving in terms of our ability to think critically and rationally. The cerebral cortex and frontal lobe (the parts which separate us from our primate cousins) are the more recent parts of the brain to evolve and so we are still subject to memetic themes found in certain ape cultures (like hoarding resources and warring with other 'tribes'). I think nationalism and religious beliefs are remnants of the primtive 'clans' we used to live in, necessary for our survival then - but not as much in modern society. Recent generations have begun to exercise the more analytically intensive aspects of our mind, much more so than previous generations because of the evolution and prevalence of our technology. I am still amazed by my nephew and step-sister who are only 9 and 10 respectively and are capable of interfacing with technology better than a lot of older people I know. Not to mention they are teaching advanced forms of arithmetic at younger and younger ages.

It will be interesting to see how memetic evolution takes course as we develop our ability to reason. Tragically there will be those who try to isolate themselves from society in order to preserve obsolete ideologies which may hamper my optimisitic timeline but I think so long as education is made readily available to younger generations and they have access to more and more complex forms of technology, which they will have mastered by the age of 5, this will result in the increased capacity to logically interpret reality as opposed to depending on psychological crutches like faith.

The three inalienable truths:

The Universe is infinite.
Existence is essential.
The only purpose in life is survival.

@Cynical Thought,

So do you think the regions of the brain which are responsible for rational thought/logic have evolved (and continue to do so) because they are a good supplement to emotional decision making when it comes to surviving?

(i.e. using arithmetic is more advantageous than just "feeling your way through"/using intuition in determining if any of your herd have been stolen by wolves or are lost)

I think the problem is that survival is only half of what drives evolution (at least until further developments in preventing death and cyborg enhancements). The other half is reproduction... and obviously those who are highly emotional are MUCH more likely to reproduce.

I don't know if you've ever seen Idiocracy, but it's a movie about a future where everyone is basically as stupid as peasants during the dark ages because all of the intellectuals were out-populated by the uneducated.

It seems that the brain structure of humans lends itself to an internal struggle between logic and emotions/intuition--and at least for now it seems a human needs both to get his/her genes into the next generation...

@ B.V.

"So do you think the regions of the brain which are responsible for rational thought/logic have evolved (and continue to do so) because they are a good supplement to emotional decision making when it comes to surviving?"

Yes, very much so, however when we were apes foraging for berries in the jungles of Africa the ability to rationalize the sudden appearance of a predator and the subsequent meticulous calculation of an optimum exit strategy would have resulted in our swift demise. Fortunately like other animals our emotional fight or flight response increased our levels of anxiety whenever we encountered "perceived dangers" and we simply fled or investigated the situation depending on what our intuition (or level of fear) told us.

Scientists are still debating on how we first became bipedal, however there is a strong correlation between the advent of our ancestors walking upright and the first species of primate to develop tools. Many scientists believe that it is when our ancestors were driven from heavily forrested areas in Africa out into the savannah that we began to utilize our hands for purposes other than simply swinging on limbs, foraging, and that sort of thing. Perhaps we had to use sticks to fend off predators because there was no tree to climb or hunt small mammals because of the absence of any edible fruit/vegetation? Was our ability to figure out how to use a stick for hunting innate or instinctual? Did it happen by accident? I'm not sure. At any rate, we slowly began to walk on two legs and this freed our hands to begin using tools. Carbon-dated fossils have placed the earliest known tools to within a few centuries of the first bipedal primates, so scientists speculate there is at least a strong connection between the two, we can only speculate right now on what that connection was.

The development of these tools (stick weapons for hunting or fighting) is what sparked the development of higher processes of thinking. So technology (as primitive as it was) is the primary reason we began to think logically and this is because our tools were becoming more and more complex as well as necessary for our survival.

"I think the problem is that survival is only half of what drives evolution (at least until further developments in preventing death and cyborg enhancements). The other half is reproduction... and obviously those who are highly emotional are MUCH more likely to reproduce."

I guess I feel like if highly emotional people can be educated about sex and about the underlying physical processes in the brain which cause emotion, they can learn to intellectualize their own subconscious motivations and make informed decisions (I am a consummate idealist). For example teen preganancy is more common in religiously conservative small towns where young couples get married for the purpose of having sex as opposed to genuinely caring for one another (due to societal pressure and backward thinking like advocating abstinence, being anti-contraceptive and anti-abortion). As opposed to more liberal areas where sex education is prevalent and teens are encouraged to use condoms and are not required to be married and are also pro-choice. Emotion is still necessary to experience romantic infatuation, and attachment to people we care about but understanding our emotion and their underlying biological causes gives us the ability to understand how those emotions are interfering with making rational decisions.

I am very interested in the advances being made in fields like biogerontology and nanotechnology that might lead to possible genetic enhancement/life extension or human/tech merging. It would seem the primary motivation of all life-forms is to preserve our genetic material which has been accomplished for centuries via reproduction, but what about our own personal genetic material? My own consciousness as opposed to say, my hypothetical children or grandchildren? I am personally not interested in having offspring, so my motivation (on a conscious level at least) seems to be survival as opposed to "genetic survival" through reproduction. It has been observed that primates engage in sex for both recreational and reproductive purposes. When someone is born gay they are motivated to have sex but obviously not for reproductive reasons. Homosexuality has been observed in countless other species, so we can obviously reason it is biologically natural. More and more psychologists/sociologists are beginning to think sex has developed into more of a social activity in certain species of primate (like the aforementioned Bonobos and Humans).

"I don't know if you've ever seen Idiocracy, but it's a movie about a future where everyone is basically as stupid as peasants during the dark ages because all of the intellectuals were out-populated by the uneducated."

Haven't seen it. Sounds horrifying. lol.

"It seems that the brain structure of humans lends itself to an internal struggle between logic and emotions/intuition--and at least for now it seems a human needs both to get his/her genes into the next generation..."

For now I think you are right, but education on the physical processes which cause emotion would go a long way into changing misguided ideals about spiritual nonsense. Basic courses in physiological psychology should be required in our public education systems instead of only being offered to college students. Still as I mentioned the mathematical sciences are being taught at a younger age, its only a matter of time before physics, biology and chemistry are as well. This coupled with our increasing reliance on technology and the logic required to operate it might help pass on more more reasoning genes, because they will be necessary for our survival.

The three inalienable truths:

The Universe is infinite.
Existence is essential.
The only purpose in life is survival.

Wow, I just copied/pasted this comment section into Word. Including avatar pictures (which hardly take up any space), this "debate" or whatever you may call it has reached 88 pages. I believe you people have set some sort of record, although not one to be proud of.

I'm certainly not going to jump into the debate itself, but ALH, when you said:

"Buddy I can promise you that I make more than you, live in a nicer house and drive a nicer car"

I can only tell you one thing; that is by far the most hilariously, hopelessly pathetic thing someone can bring into an internet argument. You must be very cool.

@Cynical Thought,

It seems like just education isn't really a fool-proof way to prevent nonsense.

I think it goes deeper than just being educated. That's actually far scarier than uneducated zealots. At least the members of the Westoboro Church are too stupid to do too much harm and are limited to burning religious texts and making signs out of poster-board.

Imagine if they had the education to build a weapon of mass destruction to attack a predominantly Muslim nation!

I think it's definitely possible for people to be religious/zealous and educated enough to be dangerous.

@B.V

“Is your claim not that the creator of humans is outside of the dimensions humans are capable of perceiving and interacting with?Or is your view of God one in which he occupies space/time and is composed of matter?”

Yes to both. Jesus occupied this dimension

“You can't say "well, I get a tingling feeling that my theory seems right" because a Schizoid won't get a tingling feeling about your theory, and I might get a tingling feeling about a completely different theory (that it's actually receiving energy from the 7th dimension).”
Well here is where we go with the 5 billion people can’t be wrong model.

“Okay, fine. You can suggest this theory... now come up with an experiment to test it. (or, even a mathematical proof that can be used to support your theory).”

http://theresonanceproject.org/research/scientific if you go to the link, under research there are several peer reviewed papers that address this theory.
T
he utilities of this theory is to solve Einstein’s field equations. But besides that, we know that God created this universe, and we know God gave us the ability to understand and decipher the codes that everything is written in, from DNA to the structure of matter. It’s a quest for understanding that every religious, agnostic and atheist shares.

@J.C Bullen, you are right it is pointless, just like trying to pretend you are intellectually superior because you are in “grad school”. As ugly as it was I had to put that person in their place.

@ALH,

Does Jesus still occupy the earthly realm (it is multi-dimensional, after all)?

If not, then your current view of God means he does not exist within reality/the perceivable universe.

Therefore you CANNOT "deal with" that God. Any and all Gods that "exist" would have to exist in dimensions we can't perceive (even with technology).

So, again, why pick just the Christian God to be concerned with? Certainly there are historical records of people worshiping other gods, and other "gods who walked the earth" besides Jesus have been recorded as well.

Without empirical evidence... all of those Gods are just as likely as the Christian God... so, how do you decide "rationally" which one to worship?