In New Quantum Experiment, Effect Happens Before Cause

Does this mean I really can have my cake and eat it too?

so the answer to which came first, the chicken or the egg is both?

Does this mean that we can send information back in time, and if so how far?

Goddamn you bronson255.

It is just another aspect of the paradoxes of time/space. If you throw a rock at a tree and it only travels half the distance, and half the distance again, it never reaches the tree. In reality it also reaches the tree before, after, simultaneously, and never.

Hardest thing I have done all day was try to reply to this article.

This blows my mind for some reason.

PuffN Stuff326,
Are you not feeling so groovy. I worked for Hanna-Barbarra as a puppetteer, but that is another story.

When I posting problems, I empty my termporary internet files and cookies, and go to C:\drive right click and properties and do a Dish Cleanup. Besure to close you browser and then re-open it again after you done all this. If the browser stays open, those obsticals can stay in memory as you attempt to repost.

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As for the article, if I make a fax of a ruler and so I end up with a measurement prior to taking a measurment and then decide to take an actual measurement, then ending up being the same as the fax, is it the same as this article?

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Science sees no further than what it can sense, i.e. facts.
Religion sees beyond the senses, i.e. faith.
Open your mind and see!

"naïve classical world view." Wow they make a cool experiment AND are pretentious pr1cks. They must be smart. There's really no other explanation.

@manhunter098 zeno's paradox breaks down on ultra small scales. There is a granularity to space. It would jump the last little bit when it hits that level, because there would be no space in between, even though there would be some distance, if that makes any sense.

The way I see this is: if space/time is not linear, but more like a fabric, then it should also behave like the tape on a cassette, which if it twists itself in a little section, and if you, say were playing the tape forwards, then for that little section you'd get a little glimpse of what's on the other side of that section of tape, or the "backwards side". I feel time exists in both directions, forwards and backwards, at the same time, all the time, and maybe things like blackholes are little vortexes that can change the direction or tunnels that can even take you to specific spots of the opposite flow, or side of it. Little particles at the quantum level are so damn tiny they can sometimes get filtered and fall through the little holes, or pores of the fabric, thus making appearances both in our time and in the "other time" and behaving unlike anything else that's bigger and follows the ordinary rules such as the 2nd law of thermodynamics we are so sadly stuck with. Anything bigger doesn't make it through the holes of the fabric. Perhaps a time machine would be to figure out how to downsize the crap out of us to a quantum size first, and then we could jump through the holes of time, or pores of the fabric freely and appear and dissapear like some sub-atomic particles have shown to be able to do. I guess dejavues are our minds channeling into the backwards flow of time making a quantum connection of both sides of time and therefore we felt we knew what just happened. Then again I'm just a guy with no knowledge and a lot of imagination...but I do wonder.

in lak'ech

@manhunter098 @Mycellium Zeno's Paradox breaks down at the macro level as you can see the rock will actually get to the tree. Why? Because .99999999999999999 repeating is actually 1. How do we know? Divide 1 and .999999999999999 repeating each by 3 and you get the same answer. Thus the rock always gets to the tree and Zeno's Paradox is fallacy.

Do these guys have no imagination? If I could delay the decision of whether or not to entangle some photons until after they were measured, the FIRST thing I would try would be to create a paradox, where the guys doing the measuring would tell the decision-maker their result, and the decision-maker would do the opposite. I want to see what would happen!

HBillyRufus, I was thinking the exact same thing... although the world might explode if they did that.

I heard it explained as such, Time (as we understand it) is an equation. What ever changes you make to that equation must be made to each side of the equation (just like in normal basic algebra) so every thought, action, etc gets expressed on both sides of the equation, where the present is the center point of the time equation, actions that change the future, exist in the past as well. There has been some studies showing that people will have a reaction about 5 (give or take) seconds before shown a stimulant, and over and over again, using a completely randomly generated image shown to a subject, the subject's body will start to react to the image 5 seconds before the image shows up. This study also came up because the top fighter pilots were making decisions and making adjustments to their flight path during dog fight situations that were technically impossible when looking solely at the "see, think, decide, move" timeframe. They were making adjustments almost instantly in response to their target. A sence of basic precognition usually called instinct or "gut feeling" is being shown to be a warning cue sent back by the brain from the future event to allow for corrective action. Really crazy stuff.

Playing Devil's Advocate since 1978

"The only constant in the universe is change"
-Heraclitus of Ephesus 535 BC - 475 BC

This means that the much theorized quantum computer already exists and is (possibly) performing calculations... ;)

Does this once and for all solve the riddle of whether or not we have true free will...?

@CodeZero, did you magically become 1 year older?

@codezero Are you referring to experienced fighter panticipating a very narrow range of possibilities before they happen.. Yeah, thats's predicting the future... I guess I can predict the future when I figure that my cat may or may not chase my foot depending on if she wiggles her butt. Just because the pilots are not sure they know why they do something doesn't mean they are not reacting to hours of flight training. The same study you are referring to says pilots with more experience seam to be reacting five seconds earlier. Hmm. That couldn't be anticipation through repetitive training? Fighter pilots are always trying to make the first move while attacking or evadinging because waiting for the other guy means you die.

Umm.. Anybody wondering about the data on this one? Are we assuming that the research showed the results were always the same. Are we talking about a higher probabilty or true predictive events? I always wonder about studies where the researchers are hoping for a result and then get exactly that result. Not trying to be a naive classisist, but I have always found that when we want to believe something we often don't question the results. I want to believe it but without more information I always wonder if I will make a fool out of myself at some social event with scientist from the JPL. :-)

@codezero. Oh, I almost forgot. Again, the studies you refer to with the bodies reaction to photos? Yes their bodies reacted but not always with the appropriate response... Again showing anticipation. These studies have been misrepresented for years by those want to prove some point they want to believe. But the result of inappropriate response always seems to get left out...

By the by, when subjects were not told they were going to be seeing a photo there was no pre-reaction.

So FTL communications are not possible but receiving communications from the future is?

Lets rig up a cascade of these feed in day trader info and get rich.

@adaptation, there's no communication because according to the linked study, you can't use this to send information. I have to admit that it's a bit of a head-scratcher for me how it can have a measurable state (which seems to me that you could reduce it to binary data if you wanted) yet not have "information", so maybe someone can clearly explain that to me...?

The "let's make a paradox" idea interests me as well, but I suspect that it's not possible and that if I understood the explanation for the first paragraph (that there is no information being transmitted) that I would understand why you can't create a paradox either.

That said, I do feel like we are moving closer and closer to at least Primer-type time travel where we can create some sort of anchor point in time and either travel back to it or at least communicate with it in some way.

The problem with the "paradox idea" to elaborate on zentastic,is that we must first and foremost look at what is observable in nature. Both physically and mathematically. Could something be thrown in reverse in another projected set of dimensions? For all intensive purposes it is impossible for us to tell for sure. My biggest question is whether or not this would have implications regarding the flow/force of space-time on a quantum scale. A single thread behaves differently than a quilt as a whole. How so?

"Causality, clearly, is a quaint, irrelevant concept."
Or in other words "there is no spoon"
So the Universe does not need a cause?
Creationists will hate that.

Wow Killer T, you sure do have it all figured out. Especially since saying vague convoluded things makes you difficult to argue with, thats classic political science

One might argue that this is proof of destiny or fate.. You have no free will, simply following the path laid out before you. The universe is following the path laid out before it, and when you look deep enough into it, you will see the precursor events unfold before they have time to 'butterfly effect' themselves into the present. (when they ask the question entangled or not)

(attacking Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle?)

"One often meets his destiny on the path he took to avoid it"
~Jean de La Fontaine~

Signed,
Stretching Devil Advocacy

OK riddle me this (I'm not interested in hearing that it's not possible):
I once found some tools I needed to fix my stranded car. They were in a paper sack on the curb of a random street. I walked by, saw the sack, and knew the tools were in it. I looked and there they were. Nobody told me. I had no possible access to that information, how come that happened?

Come on people!! Somebody answer HBillyRufus's paradox...

HBillyRufus04/25/12 at 9:57 am
Do these guys have no imagination? If I could delay the decision of whether or not to entangle some photons until after they were measured, the FIRST thing I would try would be to create a paradox, where the guys doing the measuring would tell the decision-maker their result, and the decision-maker would do the opposite. I want to see what would happen

"In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as to be understood by everyone, something that no one ever knew before.".. Paul Dirac

Pre-Crime Division is gonna love this !

This makes perfect sense when using fractal reiteration as a lattice for understanding space and time. Since both repeat, transform and repeat, time becomes a static structure of infinite probability that is then reiterated indefinitely. Basically you should be able to "zoom" in on any unidimensional plane and see yourself looking at yourself. Recursion is the cardinal red flag of life, which in turn is a response to natural recursion within our space/time dimension.

D13 was spot on with his "mirrors" analogy. The only difference is that every particle of the universe is a holographic reflection of the forces within the universe.
Futurama also did a nice segment with the "Universe inside a box inside a universe inside a box" episode.

my roomate's aunt makes $83/hr on the laptop. She has been without work for 8 months but last month her pay was $8682 just working on the laptop for a few hours. Read more on this site...NuttyRich.com

Has anyone considered the potential implications of this discoverty for advanced space propulsion?

it seems no one has their grasp on this.. yet the classical view is naive

Isn't this just another corollary of the double slit experiment? In that experiment photons will form waves as if they passed through both slits even though they passed through one or the other. The popular notion is that they have some sort of intelligence so they can exhibit the behavior expected by the experimenter. It is simply an uncertainty effect.

Edit of my own comment: the double slit photons form interference patterns (as if they were waves).

So this experiment confirms that the world is really only exists in our minds.

-

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"

- Stephen Roberts

Glory to Annunaki, king of Nibiru.

That is all.

"We don't allow entangled particles in here," said the bartender.

Two entangled particles walk into a bar.

It seems to me that time doesn't exist at all, so talking about cause and effect, before and after, is irrelevant. Time happens, as does multidimensional/meta/multi-verses, simultaneously, everywhere. In the larger hyperplane (or whatever you want to call it), the relationship between objects is absolute density. Something we cannot fathom. In our dimension, we experience the relational movement of objects in a 3D plane; however, time is just a measurement of those relationships. They are artificial. Within the density that is the "singularity", if you will, everything that was, is, or will be happens all at once. There is no motion, just absolute density. We are wrapped into this singularity in only 4 dimensions and, thus, experience what we perceive as "one path" across the multiplicity of paths that represent the multiple stochastic processes that appear to exist; however, they really aren't stochastic. They are deterministic in aggregate and stochastic in parts. This structure of thinking about the nature of the universe, space-time, and (even) faith solves a lot of questions. We "are" in fact everywhere all at once - across all dimensions - but our path dependent version of "ourselves" appear to exist as points rather than entanglements. We are all entangled in a dense, singularity of infinite density that we merely perceive as 4 dimensional space.

Prior comment is very consistent with D13's post.

a human observer stands exactly in size between the quantum micro and the cosmic micro. Time is an illusion created by the brain. We create our own reality.Everything that can happen,has already happened in the multiverse,somewhen not somewhere. Or,to put it into classical Newtonian naivete',
THAT THAT IS,IS. THAT THAT IS NOT,IS NOT. IS NOT THAT IT?
IT IS.NOT!! The observed quantum result is created simultaneously
with the non observed non result. The function of the observer is vital to the existence of the balance of the fabric of dimensional reality!! A tree falling in a forest,with no humanoid observer to hear it,MAKES NO SOUND!! To record it mechanically,or electronically from a distance doesn't matter! The universe knows that you observed it ANYWAY! NO CHEATING IS ALLOWED BY THE MATRIX!!
Schrodinger's cat is both DEAD and Alive at the same time!

should read cosmic macro vice micro.

there was a woman named bright
who could travel much faster than light

she left one day
in a relative way

and returned the previous night

Re: the comment by the writer that "Causality, clearly, is a quaint, irrelevant concept." is invalid. It would only be valid IF a decision was never made, or if the decision did not reflect the outcome! This experiment simply indicates that in the quantum world, outcomes may be discovered before the decision is made.

Fun thought: This could actually be done today or in the near future. The physics are a bit different, but the result could be essential the same as the one in this article.
Entangle two particles. Send particle number one on a journey around the cosmos at a high rate of speed for as long as you can. The longer and faster the travel, the more noticeable the effect. Keep particle number two locked in a mine as far below the surface of the earth as you can. Secure particle number two for observation before launch and observe the heck out of it (that is a technical term, btw- OTHOI!). When it is time, retrieve particle number one from outer space. Easy, right?
Inside the space capsule, accompanying particle one, is a frequency. Spin the particle at this frequency. Measure WHEN (decay) this shift occurs to both particles. Essentially, compare time-stamps. Did particle number two change before particle number one?

This is an easy one. Quantum Physics is all based upon probabilities. Electrons can never be measured to be in a specific place at a specific time, only the probability that they will be there.

In the case of this experiment, there was a probability that the the person would make the decision to entangle the particles and the group observing the entanglement were merely observing the probability of entanglement rather than actual entanglement.

Cause and effect is a basic law of physics which cannot be overthrown. Applying Occam's Razor to this experiment we thus conclude that our observations of reverse-causality cannot be correct and we seek another solution.

The solution is as I have stated.

Great observation boomshak. Can you think of a relative scenario whereby the entanglement is certain? ---Dark Matter---

-Save Yourself-

huh?

You see what is happening, right? "Naive Classical World View" = what we had when we thought the earth was flat. Now, if we think time flows linearly, we're "naive"? The paradigm is slowly shifting, and a lot of what is being discovered was already "figured out" by the old masters (Hindu, Ancient Egyptians, etc). There's nothing wrong with rediscovery, just pointing out that we had slaves 50 years ago, SO WE DO NOT have it all figured out JUST YET. We as humans are a compiled pattern of atoms rediscovering what "atoms" and particles are and what they can "do"...
Doesn't that seem a bit, limited? How detailed could an ant really study it's thorax given what we know about ants?
To think that we're at the top of the totem pole is hubris, we need to stop with the ego like these scientists have, and just tell everyone what we need to know to navigate around this reality. Why hasn't one person just spoken up and said "Ok, this is what is going on here."??? Because no one knows, and that's the fun of living. Knowing everything gets boring...

Were these quanta made of thiotimoline by any chance?

Have they checked to make sure all the wires were tightly connected? Because those claims of "faster than the speed of light" claims a while back were kind of embarrassing.

http://www.rainydaymagazine.com
"We Entertain When It Rains"

What this article fails to mention is that you need to look at both particles to know they are in the same state.
Let's assume you have 2 particles PA and PB
By looking at PA you will see a truly random property. You have no way of knowing that the observed random property was related to anything... It looks normal, and you can't extract any information from it. You wouldn't be able to tell it is entangled...
It is only when you measure the second particle PB that you can know they are entangled, and discover that the states were predictably linked.

This means you can't perform the paradoxical situation and the author of this article should neither say causality is broken nor that anyone else is nieve.

Also try reading the common misconceptions in http://io9.com/5584356/can-i-build-an-ansible-to-communicate-across-the-cosmos