Watch This Guy Fire 600 Rounds With A Partially 3-D Printed Gun

HELL YEAH! eat it congress, nothing you can do will regulate the mother freaking internet!

do you smell that? that's the smell of freedom.

to mars or bust!

I'm mostly impressed that drum magazine didn't jam. Those things have a reputation for that.

Its file sharing all over again...with guns. I think its already too late. All this time and all these chances to do something meaningful about the continued manufacture and distribution of firearms. Wasted.

Welcome to a future where every man, woman and child can instantly download and print out assault rifles with high capacity magazines. So long gun control. So long safety. So long order and civilization.

Every nut bag with a printer and a hotspot arming themselves to the teeth.

So sad that we want peace so bad, but aren't willing to give up our weapons of war...

Vega obscura; not only are you being pessimistic you are being stupid. it's not the power that corrupts people, or in this case it's not having a gun that corrupts people, and turns them all into homicidal, thief, rapists. if you are going to do any of these actions because you suddenly had a gun then you'd do any of these actions with a knife of some sort or with your bare hands. the point is that the gun is only an enabler just like a knife would be.

peace will never come through disarmament, whenever we've seen any one populace disarmed it's been borderline tyranny. Germany was disarmed after world war two and for close to 50 years had a giant wall bisecting it. Japan was disarmed after world war 2 as well and now they are scrambling for any kind support from the overt tyranny that China is showing. we the people of the united states cannot be disarmed if we are to ever survive the next century.

gun control is not safe, at all, it's more dangerous than the guns they are trying to take away. we cannot trust the government to safeguard our morals, our forefathers understood this, our forefather's forefathers understood this. this is why when we first made the constitution we made sure that every citizen was allowed to have a gun. it wasn't just for foreign invaders, it wasn't just so they could hunt for food, it was to safeguard the people from their own government that would undoubtedly try to take them away along with our other freedoms.

besides when the shit hits the fan i'm sure our enemies will love you so much that they won't hesitate to get you a nice comfy room in a gulag. or prop you up against a padded blood stained wall, for your comfort of course, as they go ahead and slaughter you and people like you like they would cattle. i'm sure that our government would love to have you around because you don't have the balls to ever say something that would be seen as "controversial" or "likely to cause dissension". when our government shows it's colors, when our enemies get fed up with their loaners, when the shit hits the fan, i can promise you, you will not survive.

finally i'd be careful who you call a nut from now on, we are working on arming ourselves aren't we?

to mars or bust!

I HAVE BLISTERS ON MY FINGER!!!

@Vega Obscura: Couldn`t agree more. I want to live in a society that advances itself (like something in Star Trek). Not a society that degrades itself to ever lower standards because some people don`t want to live by any rules, standards or compromise. Freedom is NOT everything because it needs to be bounded by the limits that allow social balance.

Otherwise anything goes and law and order disappears. The fact is Every Single Empire in world history has collapsed either because of war or because freedom (personal satisfaction) became more important then good old balance and financial health. Every Empire in history has collapsed because of fools wanting more power, more gain for themselves. Absolute freedom equals Absolute Chaos. Every fool with a death wish being able to print the deadliest of weapons equals more chaos, more fear and more instability. Instead of more stability, more peace, more love and more trust.

@ghost; I dare you to watch the following video to see what all your so called freedom means for the US and the direction it`s taking. This is just the tip of the ice berg that is coming in your dream of absolute freedom:

"People Of Walmart (Sexy And I Know It - LMFAO)"

it`s on youtube.

Now if you want much more of that absolute freedom and to live in a society were every retard with a death wish can print the deadliest weapons and no one should be able to stop him then i feel sorry for you. Society can not function with your absolute freedoms. It can only degrade that way until certain collapse. Just as every single empire until now has collapsed the US will be no exception.

No. I love living in a society that seeks balance and seeks rules and order and compromise. Because i know stability is what a healthy society needs. Just as any individual needs stability to live a strong, long and healthy life. These deadliest of weapons do not belong in a smart, healthy and advanced society. It leads to a society of more insecurity, more fear and more destruction. And don`t even begin saying you can`t stop it. We can clone human beings in our time but we don`t because we as a society have decided not to. It`s a choice we make. I want a Star Trek future not a drugs, alcohol, endless self indulgence future.

Oh noes! What if they 3d print a knife and stab me to death with it, we must ban all 3d knife models.

@adaptation. You can already buy knifes all over the place. Printing them is no different. Killing people with guns is far easier and quickly killing large amounts of people you will need a gun (or explosives or poison). Yet the opponent of a knife can even (in most cases) fight back against a knife attack or have the chance to escape. With a gun that is much, much more difficult. It`s like comparing a balloon to an airplane. Comparing a tent to a house. Over 3 times as many people die from guns then knifes in the US per year. Even while there are far more knifes then guns.

@ Greenmatrix

About your statement

"I want to live in a society that advances itself (like something in Star Trek). Not a society that degrades itself to ever lower standards because some people don`t want to live by any rules, standards or compromise. Freedom is NOT everything because it needs to be bounded by the limits that allow social balance."

Who gets to make the rules and what are these rules?

Who gets to define what “Advancement” is?

What's your obsession with guns America? Most of the rest of the world have very little interest (unless you're a farmer). Seeing you posing proudly by your Christmas trees with assault rifles last year was fairly disturbing to say the least. Fair enough have a more relaxed gun law but don't treat them like toys or loved family members. It's sickening! Of all the weapons.... an assault rifle - that's a tad overkill surely.

It's basically the end of the world's if people have guns. People need to get a grip. Going on a rampage isn't the only thing people can do with guns and it's very uncommon compared with how many people do own guns. People would freak if someone were making these negative assumptions about an ethnic group or religion the way so many are about gun owners.

COME ON!
Lets be honest, 3d printing guns is nothing new.

There was a good reason why the USA didn't want Ammunitions included in a UN ban on arm's.

Gun's don't kill people, bullets kill people!
Im pretty sure Syria has had gun-smiths sent in to arm the opposition.

@matsci1. Clearly it is my own dream in what i like for humanity and it`s direction. As always some people have a vision with no rules, no government, no laws. If the right to bare nuclear weapons was in the constitution would you support it. Just about every nation in the world has worked for centuries and centuries to develop courts, police departments, ambulance services, hospitals, fire departments, health care services, even standing armies exactly because they want rule of law, exactly because they want to be protected and provide a stable environment, a stable place for their children to grow up in.

It is about democracy and through bad gun experiences like the recent school shooting that left dead (yet again) many innocent children that this issue moves forward. For most nations in the world that is not even a question. As making it difficult to get guns clearly (and greatly) reduces gun related crimes and gun related fatalities. It is therefor a natural outcome for an advanced society to get rid of easy gun access for people that don`t require it. As it clearly benefits society with less killings.

The fact is that the US (from old days of great uncertainty) has the right to bare arm in it`s constitution exactly because it was needed back in those days. And clearly there is no longer an absolute need as most nations in the world are showing with great success through low gun crime rates and low gun related fatalities. Can you even imagine an advanced alien society visiting earth and wanting assault rifles on their spaceships. An advanced society will want less weapons not more. An advanced society will want more stability no less. An advanced society will want more certainty and safe guards not more chaos and more fear.

Looking at the direction through democratic process it seems the US government will increase gun laws not reduce them. This could even be applied to 3D printing companies having to put in protection systems, Internet companies having to ban 3D gun printing files and extra extended jail times for people who carry these extreme assault rifles or other banned weapons. Clearly i greatly welcome and support this direction.

@Fletch, Hey buddy your concern for American citizens and our governing policies is touching, it really is, in fact I was so inspired by your generalized opinion of all Americans that I will follow your example of stereotyping an entire population of people and return the favor. As you have not provided your country of residentcy I will assume that it is not America based off your post, therefore I will also assume that American influence is something that effects your life, as you have commented on it. America is influencial I know, no need to put it into words. Your country probably not so much, as I could care less what happens within your borders. As the world superpower American policy on gun control is a riveting issue that the entire worlds population should follow very closely as it is a major issue that would affect every living person from now until end times, wouldn't want your sensitive eyes to have to see America posing next to a christmas tree with an assault rifles anymore, now would I. Remember no matter what you take away from this, always keep in mind, your opinion counts.

Gun nuts will soon be extinct. Heres my reasoning. One, they obviously have a lower IQ because only the ignorant fear the government, random people, and probably wildlife too.

People with a lot of guns are far less likely to attract intelligent or beautiful women, so their offspring will be progressively uglier and dumber.

Their numbers will also be culled through attrition after they decide the government is out to get them and open fire on police or civilians. Those that do survive will inevitably face execution or life in prison.

The NRA is a terrorist organization, and people with assault rifles are terrorists. Get a life people, get rid of your guns and give your head a shake. Rabidly defending your so called "right" to kill others shows your kind is a subspecies and is destined to go the way of the dodo.

@Greenmatrix

"Absolute freedom equals Absolute Chaos."

A classic straw-man argument. Freedom is not an absence of laws or rules. That is called anarchy. Freedom is being able to do what you want, as long as you are not infringing on another persons rights.

No one is advocating "absolute freedom" or anarchy. Killing a person is illegal, you have denied their right to live. Owning an assault weapon is not infringing on anyone's rights.

Your problem is that you do not trust your fellow citizens. You would take away their power, my power and your own as well, leaving all the power in the hands of the government.

"Freedom is NOT everything because it needs to be bounded by the limits that allow social balance." lol WHAT!? Are you kidding me?whos social balance? Your western view? Hope the middle east? or south east asia? The system we have in the united states has worked because of the constitution it follows. A governemnt remains respectful because it knows that the people that support it may over throw it if needed. The fact that you (Greenmatrix) think that just because we are in a modern time don't think we need them just shows how little you know and how niave you are. Go google The battle of Athens TN. 1946 a "modern" time. Firearms, in the right hands, do not create fear they create calm. I have never felt more safe than when i know i have access to my firearms. Also the largest killing of children in a school was not done through firearms but an IED look it up.

To everyone that thinks that the ability of someone to build a lower reciever and large mags means that every crazy person will get one and make these "deadly"(haha) weapons and go kill everyone.....think about it, first the need to buy a 1.5k(the very least) 3-d printer, printing stock, learn to use a 3-d printer, print them, then buy the upper reciever, then buy ammo etc. etc. you've allready spent more time and money than if you had just gone out and bought them yourselves....if any thing this technology only benefits hobby shooters.

@ Greenmatrix

“And clearly there is no longer an absolute need as most nations in the world are showing with great success through low gun crime rates and low gun related fatalities.”

This statement is very logical…if a means to commit a crime is less accessible then it can be expected that crimes committed with the means in question proportionally be reduced. But that does not say that it will reduce crime across the board.

I live in Germany now and one of the phenomena that is a lot more common over here than in the U.S. is the burning of vehicles. Here is a website that was keeping track of the vehicles being burnt just in Berlin.

http://www.brennende-autos.de/

However they stopped counting after 3 and a half years and 633 recorded cases. The website still exists though.

A lot of this was done by leftist groups that were unsatisfied by the way society was going. Especially when a renovation project was being started and was tearing down the rundown buildings that they took over and were squatting in.

As you put it:

“Just about every nation in the world has worked for centuries and centuries to develop courts, police departments, ambulance services, hospitals, fire departments, health care services, even standing armies exactly because they want rule of law, exactly because they want to be protected and provide a stable environment, a stable place for their children to grow up in.”

The police department and court system , as can bee seen by the graphic on the website, were not successful in stopping this behavior. However the fire department had a good record of showing up to put the fire out..after the vehicle was destroyed along with other flammable objects in the area.

I do not ever recall a phenomena like this happening in America. Is it because the America police are more efficient at doing their job than those in Germany?...or is the court system in America more advance than that of Germany? Then again, if a group of society decided to act like this in America and go on a car burning spree how long do you think it would be before the owners of the property being destroyed were watching from their windows waiting to protect what is theirs and that of their neighbors? One of the difference that gives the American Property owner an advantage over the German property owner is that he is allowed to have a gun.

Then there is the cross border crime in the eastern region of Germany that borders Poland and The Czech Republic. They steal everything there…including the copper rain gutters and down spouts off the houses. And what easy picking the thieves have to. In a lot of these small towns in the boarder area the younger people have moved away because of lack of work and the older retired people have stayed on drawing their pension. Now if you are a thief in your late teens or 20´s, what fear do you have to have from an old retired person? If you are in Germany, the retired man is probably not going to have a gun. What is he going to do…yell at you? Call the police? Yeah, go ahead…call the police. The police will show up in these areas in about 30 minutes or so. By the time the police get there the thieves are long gone with your rain gutters or whatever else they decided to help themselves to.

You mentioned democracy a few times in your post. Take a look at the result of the elections in Italy over the weekend.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/27/opinion/italy-cult-of-berlusconi-emmott/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

This is from CNN. The articles in the European news services are more critical but most are not in English.

These guys were elected through a democratic process but do you really want to entrust them with upholding a system where the “Rule of Law” provides a “Stable Environment”?

You write “Clearly it is my own dream in what i like for humanity and it`s direction.”. Everybody has their idea about how the world “Should Be” and there is no problem with that. Where the problem arises and things can get dangerous is when people start viewing “Should Be” as “Is” and make themselves vulnerable to something in society that they have been trying to ignore.

@dkella
I'm glad you could intellegently add to this convo. Looks like your offspring have a bright future.....
if you truly think that you can complete trust the gov. with out fault, i think the founding fathers of this country might want to have small talk with you.

@democedes
Here here!!!!

@democedes

you surely do not understand the true meaning of anarchy...
(what you describe reseblse more to those tennagers who listen to nirvana painting the walls with A's...)

Nature is driven by anarchy, and yet its not chaos and have its own sets of "rules".

---
No facts, No response...

"greenmatrix"

When is the last war you remember America being involved in where Americans were directly threatened by another world power? The few in control of America have made war against many countries for their own betterment and self interest. As far as I see, WWII was the last war where America was threatened to the extent that war was necessary. Wars since then were made up by politicians who used Americans as their slaves to fight people in other countries who never threatened us, so the politicians could steal the resources for themselves. IRAQI "insurgents" were former business owners who saw their businesses stolen and sold to the highest bidders world wide.

We are now pawns and participants in a "game" played throughout history where those in power use those without for their own personal gain. Americans only have their legally owned firearms to protect themselves from a total takeover. Those in power are trying to weed out as many owners of firearms as they can. This is easy to see. Why did our government purchase billions of rounds of jacketed bullets that can only be used domestically? And fully automatic weapons? Crowd control devices? Internment camps?

If our government feels Americans should be disarmed why are they arming themselves to the teeth? Who is going to use the machine guns and jacketed bullets purchased by the government this year that cannot be used for war according to international treaty? Aren't military people humans too? Our military members are trained to kill. What makes them more trustworthy than citizens who passed the intensive background checks performed on ever carry permit holder? (BTW ... jacketed bullets are NEVER used for practice as claimed by DHS - too expensive - regular lead bullets are used.)

Take the example of the 2009 massacre at Ft. Hood where an army psychiatrist shot and killed 13 recruits and wounded 32 others. He selected a place where he knew people DID NOT HAVE GUNS to defend themselves with. What stopped the slaughter? The arrival of police with guns to shoot back. The government wants to give this man and others like him MACHINE GUNS and an unlimited supply of bullets. Shouldn't this example and that of the other massacres of people by lunatics in "GUN FREE ZONES" let Americans know that this latest attempt to disarm the public is based on falsehoods and has a motive other than safety behind it?

PS ... There is NO SUCH THING as an ASSAULT WEAPON. This is a term made up by American politicians intent on disarmiing the public who want to perpetuate misunderstanding and misconceptions about firearms in the general population so they have a chance to succeed in their ultimate power grab. No other country uses this term including the UN

@vt007

I get the meaning of my words from the dictionary. There are several definitions of that particular word, but context makes the intended meaning obvious. If you do not agree with that meaning, I suggest you take it up with the DSNA.

@democedes

boohoo, someone is grumpy today ^^

internet has anarchic structure, cant deny that...

---
No facts, No response...

everyone getting so excited over 3D printing is a hoot, you cant build an entire gun so what difference does it make, and here is a little known secrete, it takes about two hours to modify any 30 cal magazine into a 30+ round clip with a few simple tools that lots of guys have in the garage

another thing if the government outlawed the sale of high capacity clips today, they would still be around a hundred years from now, people wont give them up, besides if your looking to kill a crowed of people 3 inch 12 gauge 000 buck shot is a better choice not a gay 223 or 9MM

ianredneck, as usual i disagree with you, but i am defintitely glad we can disagree, as both of us live in countries where our governments allow us to protest, and allow free speech. (and allow gun ownership)

IMO, if owning a gun makes you feel calm, you live in a constant state of fear. I dont live in fear, any day , and i dont feel the need for a gun. The government doesnt scare me, mine or yours, or anyone elses.

Spreading the attitude that people need guns to defend themselves or to threaten their government into submission is terrorist talk. People can get along just fine without guns. Especially high capacity ones that have one function in mind. Murder. You and anyone else here can justify murder however you like, whether it be children in a foreign country, women in your home country, police officers in your home town, but its still murder and its still wrong.

Sure there are a few hobby shooters that could benefit from having a 3d printer, but are the few minutes spent shooting at targets for personal gratification worth the deaths of a few hundred that will inevitably occur because a psychopath gets his hands on a high capacity magazine and arsenal?

This is a clear cut case where personal freedoms should be infringed upon , like all the reasonable comments from vegaobscura and green matrix, because for society to advance, there needs to be limits on personal freedom. Like rape laws. I strongly support rape laws, because they impinge on the personal freedoms of assholes. The straw man argument (which i have heard twice today on this site) is infantile and doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

(1) This is nothing more than using a $10k 3d printer to produce legally at home what anyone using a $10k aluminium printer can produce legally at home - or, for $85-350 you can simply buy a lower (the "lower" is the part that the government considers the "gun" - the rest is not regulated). Thus, this in no way makes guns cheaper, more available, or more open to crime with current technology.

(2) I am glad to see that the newer model is more reliable than the old. Advances in technology should always be celebrated (maybe better heat tolerance in 3d printed material or greater strength under strain).

(3) People who are pro-gun freedom fear the government, because they have read history books and they fear criminals, because they watch the news. People who are anti-gun freedom fear that the only thing keeping their neighbors from killing them is that their neighbors simply haven't found the means to kill them with yet. Which one is paranoid?

@dkella

"only the ignorant fear the government"

Those that do not have a healthy fear of government are ignorant of history.

"...there needs to be limits on personal freedom. Like rape laws."

Perhaps we should make penises illegal too.

I'm British, although I'm not sure how that makes a difference. I guess by your condescending tone you took offence to what I said. Infact, I wasn't trying to deny anyone a right to bare arms. I even said that we bare arms here... if we really need to. The occasional shot gun, a pistol if you need it for your job, a fair few air rifles. What I don't get is why there is such an obsession with heavy assault weapons in America and why a large amount of the gun owning population seem to want to show off their over-the-top weapons.. What possible use could you have for an assault rifle as a regular citizen?
I fear you may have taken my first few lines rather personally, resulting in you skipping over the over all point I was trying to raise and going straight for the defensive diatribe!

@dkella
i don't live in fear but i do know that the police don't always stop crime. They usually show up afterwards. It in generl takes 10-15 min to get to you. And in that time the crime is usually committed. So if anything i'm a realist. Do you have locks on your doors? Do you lock you car doors when you leave it? If you do then you live in fear as well. You just trust another level of security than me. I know that i can defend myself better with a weapon than a locked door.
Well thats the first time i've been called a terrorist for knowing my history. That whole People who don't understand their history are doomed to repeat it. You say people can get along fine with out guns. tell that to the citizens of Athens TN in 1946 or the German in the early 30's. how about the Cambodians in the 60-70s. Say that to the hundreds of thousands of people who use firearms to protect themselves every year. And why would i need to jusitfy any murder, murder is against the law and shouldn't happen.

I think there is a fallacy in your thinking that people that want to hurt people will stop wanting to hurt people if they don't have access to firearms...how wrong you are! They will always find a way to kill many people. Just like the bombing of the school in IL that caused the largest loss of life in school intentionally...the guy used a bomb. No shots were fired.

I also think you have a fallacy of thought on perosnal freedoms and how it stands in the United States. Personal freedom is everything. And as soon as you start "impinging" on others thats when you break the law true. The right to self defense, whether it be from athug entering your house or the gov., that is trying to impinge on your personal freedom of life liberty.
With you wanting to take my rights away, you sir/m'am are "impinging" on my rights.
Your personal dream of a Utopia where there are no guns, and no one hurts each other, and everybody respects each other is just that a dream. Greed is and self interest is in the heart of every human being, it how we use that, that makes us good or evil.

@fletch
To be honest there really is no day-to-day need for semi-automatic weapons with/without high capacity mags. A lot of people like them generally because they are cool, fun to shoot. But the reason we have the need to be able to own one is that is because that is how our gov. is designed. Our right to own firearms keeps our gov in check. Atleast thats the way its designed. When looking at the bill of you need to take it into context of when it was written. Our foundign fathers understood the need to own firearms as the last defense against a tyrannical gov. Thats why it was one of the original 10 in our constitution. You can also see how important it was to them in their writtings.

Anyone can buy a bucket of gasoline and light it up with a match on an object or person.

Hello?

@ Fletch

I think I can answer your question with a few examples.

In my earlier response to Greenmatrix I made reference to the auto burning spree that was occurring in Berlin. You write that you are from England. Are you familiar with what I am referring to? The leftists are well known for this behavior and the police are on the cautious side about how they go against the left wing groups in Germany. The police were not very effective at protecting the citizenry in this matter and so it was the common man who was taking the worst of the damage…like the family that packed their car the evening before going on vacation and were awaken in the middle of the night to find it ablaze. Or an old Mercedes that was restored by man that also fell victim to the auto burners. Mercedes is one of the favorite marks hit by the left because it is driven by the " Bourgeoisie".

This is an example of where the police response to the problem was not adequate in protecting the citizenry. Also, I am not talking about something that was going on for just a week or so. The website documents the burnings for a period of 3 and half years.

Do you also remember the riots on May 1ts in Berlin were the police were filmed running away from the left wing rioters? This has happened on more than one occasion here in Germany.

Are you familiar with the LA riots in America in 1992 when the blacks went on a rampage because to the Rodney King incident? The police did not contain the riots and the whole area was out of control. One group that made themselves famous for their courage in the face of this threat was the Asians. When the blacks tried to go into the Asians neighborhood and burn and loot, the Asians successfully defended themselves…with the use of guns. Here is a link to some of the pictures from that time.

http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/ssbxw/store_owners_defending_their_property_during_the/

This is an answer to your question of:
".. What possible use could you have for an assault rifle as a regular citizen?"

When you ask:
" What I don't get is why there is such an obsession with heavy assault weapons in America and why a large amount of the gun owning population seem to want to show off their over-the-top weapons."

" Heavy assault weapons" are not an obsession to everyone that has a gun but there is a segment of the gun owning population that wants them. Also, I am sure that anyone those Asians that had one of these during the LA riots was sure glad he did.

You can also apply your question to people who own a Rolex watch or drive a Porsche. Why not a Timex? Why do you have to drive a Porsche when a Chevy will do? Or diamond rings? Or mobile phones with 500+ functions? Or….etc…

There are normal citizens that fall victim to crime not only in America but all over the world. People arm themselves for various reasons and why one man purchase the firearm he does can not necessarily be applied to the next man…or woman. However I would say more often than not a sense of security will be found to be one of the common answers. Also what makes one person feel secure is not for others to define because everybody has their own comfort level.

@matsci1 I said I was from Britain.. Definitely not England :)
I'm not denying that being able to defend yourself is desirable. However, most of Europe, regardless of the laxity of their gun laws, won't give a second thought as to whether they have a gun handy incase something should happen. It just appears that American gun owners are almost expecting violence that would require the use of a lethal weapon. If someone burned my car I wouldn't aim a gun at them or threaten them with a knife or my fists because the damage would have been done and I'd be putting myself in danger by confronting them.. the insurance would deal with the damage to the car. If someone broke into the house I might go for the air rifle to maim them if needed but definitely to threaten them away from my property.. It seems like the possession of a weapon in America is more of a grotesque sense of one-upmanship and showing off rather than treating them as a quiet necessity. The danger is in the way that these weapons are glorified and made up to be an outward measure of ones testicles. Why does it need to be shouted about and why can't people be happy with a pistol or a shotgun tucked up behind a cabinet somewhere, forgotten about until it needs to be used.

"It seems like the possession of a weapon in America is more of a grotesque sense of one-upmanship and showing off rather than treating them as a quiet necessity. The danger is in the way that these weapons are glorified and made up to be an outward measure of ones testicles."

Is this based on your own experience or what you see on the television / internet?

@democedes Both, granted my experience is of Austin, Texas.

fletch you hit the nail right on the head, we Americans love to "one up" other people and other countries

and seeing how you are a British male you should leave testicles out of the conversation, because after all it is a well known fact that when a male British child is born the testicles are given to the mother for safe keeping, until such time as a suitable wife can be chosen for him, at that point the testicles are handed over to the wife for safe keeping, should a divorce occur the wife is obligated to immediately hand the testicles back to the mother or other suitable female member of the male child's family in case of death ;0)

Maybe this is the reason we don't celebrate our weapons.. The grip on our man plums is a far more pressing matter.

@Fletch
Excuse me for assuming that you were from England. England just happens to be associated with Britain more strongly that the other members.

You are correct in your indication as to Europeans having a different mentality to how they would defend themselves in situations compared to Americans. I have noticed many more differences since moving to Germany.

You have stated how you would feel if your car was a victim of an arson attack and if you are content with that, then it is right for you. However, that does not mean that others would be comfortable with being so passive in the same situation. Also, the possibility of personal bodily injury or death is a very strong incentive not to commit a crime.

"It seems like the possession of a weapon in America is more of a grotesque sense of one-upmanship and showing off rather than treating them as a quiet necessity."

I do not agree that this statement can be applied to all gun owners. I grew up in a small hill town and in just about every house guns could be found but were usually only seen in great numbers during hunting season or on the firing range. Just like for the first week of trout season in April when it seems like everybody was walking around in hip boots.

"The danger is in the way that these weapons are glorified and made up to be an outward measure of ones testicles."

For the same reason that people drive a Porsche, own a Rolex or a 500+ function smart phone.

"Why does it need to be shouted about and why can't people be happy with a pistol or a shotgun tucked up behind a cabinet somewhere, forgotten about until it needs to be used."

Many gun owners are exactly like that. You don´t usually hear about them though because reading about them would be very boring.

I can see how never knowing the precise location of your giblets would consume a fare bit of your time, cutting down your ability to pursue manly activities, or defend yourself ;0)

@fletch

Interesting. I live in the mid-west. Many of my friends and business contacts own guns. A few are avid collectors. They collect historical pieces. But they don't treat them as a status symbol. Their pick-up trucks on the other hand... most definitely, but not the guns.

I do not doubt there are some people in the US that do see weapons as a status symbol, but I don't think that they represent the majority of gun owners, let alone the entirety of the US population.

There are worst way people can be kill than from guns. Would not disease be worst? What if a guy had a live culture of MRSA or some strong resilient disease and went buffets and sprayed them on foods.

@matsci. You make some very good counter arguments, half of which seem to be changing my mind on a few things. However, there's still an air of excuses for what amounts to a casual nature on an incredibly dangerous and enabling piece of machinery. There's a bit of a difference between being a flashy git and showing off your material wares and then showing off how macho you might be by getting the most menacing piece of war machinery you can buy.

feltch unless you know of an ar15 that can jump up and shoot all by itself then menacing isn't the right word to use

Obviously the issue of gun control is of concern to most informed individuals. The issue of gun control is not specific towards "assault" rifles it propses to put a ban on high capacity magazines, and any weapon that has tactical features, i.e. pisotl grip, foregrip, collapseable stock etc... features our governing body had deemed to be to scary, ridiculus. Take a hunting rifle for instance, nothing sinister there, add a pistol grip and collapsible stock and it magically becomes a mass murders dream, come on. National gun registries have led towards confiscation in the past. What every AMERICAN should realize is that once restictions on our constitutional rights begin, it will not end. Look at the Patriot Act in detail and tell me that is constitutional, I digress.

So you see fletch it's not about one uping the next guy and proving that your balls hang lower or whatever its about rights and liberties that we were born into, and preserving the level of freedom that we have had in the past. The trajedy's of the past all have an unerlying thread of common characteristic, and that is one of mental health.

Futhermore there are currently 300 million guns in the US, they will not be gong anywhere anytime soon, there will always be a market available in the US for weapons be it legal or not. Restrictions and registration will only effect the individuals that follow the laws, common sense and a little fore thought will might help with this one.

Oh and I live close to Austin and though i dont consider myself a conservative i certainly know that thats the most liberal city in Texas, not a valid point of refernce in this topic fletch. Sorry for taking offense from a foreigner that thinks defending his home with a pellet gun is an appropriate level of threat deterent.

I am not sure what you mean about and "air of excuses" . However a "casual nature on an incredibly dangerous and enabling piece of machinery" can be attrributed to a cultural difference and what one is used to. I grew up around weapons, was a junior member of a hunting and fishing culb at the age of 9 and hunted, fished and trapped until I graduated from high school and joined the army as a tanker. I fired numerous calibers of weapons from a BB gun up to a 105mm tank cannon with actions from muzzel loader to full automatic. Being around people whom have weapons is not something that makes me feel uncomfortable.

Consider this…if I was to walk down the main street of my home town carrying a rifle nobody would really give it a second thought. If I did that here in Germany I do believe there would be quite a different reaction.
Do you know of the section of city park in Munich called the English Garden? If I went there in the middle of the day and took all my clothes off and walked around naked in public nobody would really give it a second thought. If I did that in Central Park in New York I do believe there would be quite a different reaction.

"There's a bit of a difference between being a flashy git and showing off your material wares and then showing off how macho you might be by getting the most menacing piece of war machinery you can buy."

I see the principle as being similar but the object in question being different. People are using a material object exterior to themselves to project an interior quality or characteristic that they either have or do not have and wish they did.

But as I said, not all gun owners are like that. Also, there are a number of people ( and not a majority number) out there that not only have semi automatic "Assualt Rifles"…there are those that have fully automatic ones and other "menacing pieces of war machinery". However you will usually not find these people parading around with them and calling attention to themselves.

@PaleBlueDot I'm not trying to offend here. I'm discussing a hot topic in what amounts to me walking into the Lions den (Brits who don't give a hoot about guns against Americans who see it as their right and are fiercely defensive). I'm not the type to denounce all weapons or impose any strong beliefs upon another culture. It's merely a discussion, which others seem to have happily understood.

@matsci1 I'm a country lad and have guns all around me as a matter of course. Farmers use them, The people who dispose of ill animals carry around pistols and there is a cacophony of gunshots around my area on a daily basis. I'm not weak of heart when it comes to guns of all sorts. I think your point on the fact that a right to bare arms was written into the constitution due to the civil war and all the feelings and situations that came around the less-than-easy break from the UK might explain this situation.. It's an ingrained and learned social position on something that has been seen as a personal defence for centuries and for very good reason. Maybe my experience of Austin (which was very positive) isn't a general marker for the rest of the nation. I can't deny that all other experience has come from the media. So if it is a case of most people only having a sensible weapon tucked away for when it's needed, or a weapon for a legitimate use then I apologise for generalising.

I'm loving the naked stroll through the German park analogy by the way. So very true. I've worked for a German company for the last few years :)

@ Fletch
"I think your point on the fact that a right to bare arms was written into the constitution due to the civil war and all the feelings and situations that came around the less-than-easy break from the UK might explain this situation.."

I never mentioned this point. Also it was the revolutionary war and not the civil war…the civil war was in then 1860´s. However, the situation of the time is the reason that the second amendment was written as it was.

America started out as a republic ( I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic for which it stands) and that was a radical experiment in government at the time. Every other country that was anything at the time was a Monarchy. A way for a Monarchy to control its subjects is to make sure the means to carry out a rebellion is limited. If the population is armed, there is less of a chance that a central government can start to be oppressive.

"So if it is a case of most people only having a sensible weapon tucked away for when it's needed, or a weapon for a legitimate use then I apologise for generalising."

No Problem. What can you expect when all the media shows to the public is the extreme cases? A bunch of 12 year olds going through a hunter's safety course in Pennsylvania before they are allowed to go hunting with their parents or an adult guardian is not a story line that gets attention. A story that was run in "Der Spiegel" on line the other day about the "North Florida Survivalist Group" ( from the Pictures I gather this group has a membership of 6) does.

Ghost:

You don't need a gun.

I've grown up in NY, Philly, and L.A. How often are you attacked or held up by another sicko with a weapon?

Probably never, unless you go looking for trouble.

There are no zombies. There is no imminent threat. There is not even a need for war anymore. There is no need for guns- the need to have a weapon to kill people?

I'm all for self defense, but not lethal weapons or force.

If I don't need a gun, why do you need one? Because you live in constant fear of being attacked? Get real. That's no way to live. Even as a hobby- shooting rounds is fun? Maybe, but the kids at Columbine, and Newtown, and Aurora think you should get a different hobby. There are plenty out there.

If I don't need a gun to feel safe, then why do you?

You're not homicidal, but people are forced into crazy and sudden situations where they lose control of their emotions and go on a shooting spree.

All guns have to go eventually. It's not fair to the non gun-owners.

Just want to throw this concept out there for approval: Power doesn't corrupt people, people corrupt power. If anything power acts like a magnifier for corruption.

Also, for your approval: power amongst people is relative.

If these are accurate, then I would propose that the greater the power wielded by the masses, the less capable one individual has to consolidate power. Said another way, though I hold the belief of better to have and not NEED than NEED and not have, as long as we have we will not ever NEED.

Also, I would like to point out that firearms are a truly democratic tool: They give a 98lb old lady the same power as a 195lb MMA champion. How is that a *bad* thing?

@DoogsNova

You have been very fortunate in life to have never been in a confrontation in which a firearm may have been necessary to preserve yours or a loved one's life - or a complete stranger's for that matter.

Many others in this country have not been so lucky. In 2012 alone nearly 15,000 people had their lives taken, nearly 100,000 forcibly raped, and more than 350,000 robbed. well over 2 MILLION others experienced a burglary. Some unfortunate souls experienced more than one of these events.

Source: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-7

The most severe disservice you can inflict upon your own safety is to convince yourself that a threat will never happen, and that you have no need to prepare for such an event. The numbers above are not trivial matters. these values are YEARLY summations. Each year another 10,000+ people will lose their lives. Each year another 75,000+ women (or men) will be raped against their will. Would you tell a woman that she shouldn't carry mace, a taser, or a knife to defend herself if she were to be raped? If your answer is no, then you concede that there is, in fact, a danger, and our disagreement now is only on what tools are most effective for defense, rather than attempting to fool ourselves that we are forever safe.

Most importantly though, there is no requirement that one must live in fear to remain prepared for any threat. This is something that is said often, but is very much a straw-man argument.

Myself and many millions of others will walk down the street in their home town today with no fear in their heart, but will have a firearm at their side to defend themselves, their loved ones, or you should the need arise. Each day we do so we pray (or hope, if not the praying type) that we will never be required to remove that firearm from its holster. It will be there, though, should the need arise. The next closest defense, your local law enforcement, will not be at your side when the time comes (through no fault of their own).

Truthfully, it is the threat one has not prepared for that should be feared, not the one that you have equipped yourself against. Be that having insurance or savings enough to support your family should you meet an untimely end, or carrying the tools that allow you to prevent another from causing that end.

Sincerely though, I wish you the best of luck in the future, as I hope you will never find out how truly unprepared you may be to defend yourself and yours.

One more thing I wanted to discuss:

"All guns have to go eventually. It's not fair to the non gun-owners."

I simply cannot fathom how this mentality can coexist with any value of personal freedoms, of any type.

I will provide a marginally relevant example from my every day life: I drive in Massachusetts every day, and I am terrified (in a sense, not literally fearful) of nearly every single driver on the roads in that state (sorry to any natives on here), and have had that fear validated many times over. In fact, I am far more likely to be killed in an automobile accident than I am to be shot. In spite of all of this, it has never entered my mind that it would be my right to debar any individual the use of their car or to drive themselves wherever they are going, much less to do so without clear demonstration that that individual is a clear and demonstrated hazard.

Rather, I consistently place the onus on me to ensure my own safety, not to strip the rights of those that I feel threatened by. No matter how many accidents I witness or see on the news, any fear I feel towards any individual driver is, in the most basic sense, an unsubstantiated generalization. To act against any individual based on that generalized fear without substantiation that they, individually, represent the perceived hazard would be an unwarranted infringement of their rights and personal freedoms.

This is an incredibly selfish and dangerous mentality. The day we strip the rights of our countrymen for no reason other than our own discomfort, we will have lost so much more than you care to realize.

Some food for thought, though: More than a handful of states (mine included) have existing precedent and/or law that declares unambiguously that an individuals personal discomfort with the possession of a firearm by a lawful member of the public, either concealed or openly carried, does not constitute a valid basis to infringe on that individuals rights or the lawful exercise thereof.

This would seem to directly oppose your view that it is 'unfair.'

Correction: Statistics I presented from the FBI database are for 2011, not 2012.

@iambronco
Here Here!

@DoogsNova
Sorry if this sounds means, but why should your discomfort take away my rights? If i am uncomfortable with what you say can i make you stop saying it? What if i'm uncomfortable with the ability of you to beat a criminal charge due to our legal system and due process, can i lock you up without evidence? See how this slope gets slippery?

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