Congress Preserves James Webb Telescope For Now, But At What Cost?

just look at all we have accomplished with hubble alone. if this is a bigger, more powerful version, then I think NASA may be able to afford it.

why learn from your own mistakes, when you could learn from the mistakes of others?

What have we accomplished from Hubble except pretty pictures? Is the price of gas lower? Is my or your paycheck higher? Is medical insurance lower? Has the government balance the budget and stop threatening to lower social security or Medicare? Is our country stopped being at war? Has the AIDs cure been found?

I like to see most of the money spent on inner science and less on outer space science.

We have a capitalistic society. If it’s so profitable to be inner space, our business would find a way to be there. I am tired of these space programs given charity.

I like to see less disease and cancer in our country.

I am sure others just prefer to look at pretty pictures of stars... sheesh. :(

based on what I read, this isn't about weather or not the money should be given to NASA, it's about weather or not they should spend it all on this satellite, or if they should save it for other space missions, and as far as space missions go, hubble has accomplished gather the same amount, if not more data, then other space missions. it has done way more than "take pretty pictures."

why learn from your own mistakes, when you could learn from the mistakes of others?

-my name here-, sorry prefer to put government money towards desease and cancer research. But everyone has their priorities. I am just different than you.

@becosmos

Some of those things may change with time. Others may never be changed. Remember that we've had some odd five or six thousand years of civilized existence to fix war, greed, corruption, and famine.

Scientific pursuits like this are meant to expand general knowledge of the universe and develop higher insight and outlook beyond that of a totally secular mind.

Pretty pictures are not the purpose. Pretty pictures are meant to entice people's interest. Empirical data from this research will help our understanding, should we develop a means to journey beyond our solar system.

No we may not be doing it now, but that's not a reason to ignore such studies. It's like progressive military research & development (look at the logic behind the example rather than the theme). Projects are done that will help a modern military of a developed nation develop strategies and hardware that are based on past experiences, present occurence, and projections of future capabilities.

NASA's work in this realm have helped to develop orbital technology that has further inabled broadband and wireless interlinked communications, global positioning navigation, and more accurate weather forecasting to name a few things.

This application of technology in the present comes from the foundation of past technological capabilities advanced to meet the demands of the world today.

The manned and unmanned spaceflight endeavor beyond LEO is meant to seek facts that may scientifically benefit our race in the present and for future generations to come.

For this reason, everything that NASA does is important, and indispensable.

@becosmos
your talking about problems that will never go away, if we focus on problems that never go away, we will never get anywhere.

If you do what you have always done, your gonna get what you have always got.

pheonix1012, I had a cousin die of AIDS and many family members over different periods die of cancer. I just prefer the money to be dumped in to helping others, TODAY, NOW, not from some kind of trick down technology 30 years from now.

Well, I understand this is POPSCI and when I insult NASA, or Hubble or any space program, it’s like a tipping over a monument... I am sure many others will respond to me in a hateful manner. But just wait till this situation happens to you or a loved one. I’ll stop replying now, I am sure this can go on all day….

@becosmos

To add on, NASA's microgravity experiments conducted in LEO study the effects of micro-organisms in the space environment. As some of these organisms become more virulent to the space enviroment, R&D through this endeavor will not only benefit studies made to combat the virulence of vicious micro-organsisms that would threaten humans on deep space missions. These studies would benefit microbiology as a whole, furthering our understanding of diseases and cancers and how to defeat them.

@becosmos

Many things that are used in modern medicine was pioneered by Nasa.

For example laser technology, which is used in some surgeries to get rid of some cancers. Another example is laser eye surgery. And all the other technological off shoots from lasers.

Some of the prosthetics they use in space is used as the foundation for artificial limbs. And many aspects of robotics and automation.

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) technology, which helps in visualizing internal structures of the human body. Guess what? Nasa.

Do you have a memory foam bed or pillow? .. thank NASA!

All these technologies that they use to do complex missions do trickle down to everyone.

@becosmos

Your bias is completely understood. Certain topics hit home closer to people for different reasons. You seek an end to something responsible for taking away those closest to you. Many people like to gaze at the stars because it's an image of hope greater than the existence that we hold. For this everyone's priorities will never be in sync.

@becosmos If you think that the images from the Hubble are only perty and space programs are a bad idea you are both stupid and short sighted. You don't know enough about what space programs to talk about. Wiki has a page just about all of the inventions that have come from space programs.
Here a video to help you too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9AZTGcNecA&list=PLDA9261009BA0E866&index=11

@becosmos
I don't get it, are you saying that you want the money going to this specific program to be transferred to cancer research? What makes you chose this program to defund over, say, farm subsidies, or the military? I understand that you want to see progress made as I'm sure the anguish of losing family has instilled you with a painful perspective. A quick and unscientific google search says that in the United States along, annually the amount of money spent on cancer research is $5.2 Billion dollars.

@ novacon

Not to undermine your argument, but NASA did not develop the MRI. That would be Paul Lauterbur who was born in my town.

i dont think they will miss one million...
can i have one? ^^"

bored? lets go mine the stars... ^^

I don't have the numbers to back it up (maybe someone else can help with those), but I'm fairly certain cancer research got far more funding last year from government grants, donations and private sector investments than NASA ever did.

@Igot1forya...you are probably correct, NASA is a small part of the budget, really amusing to suggest cutting NASA to fix other things

@Igot1forya

Of the 26% of GDP that goes into government spending, NASA receives less than 1% of some $18tn annually. It's the least funded agency of the entire U.S. government.

@becosmos

I'm just curious as to what cancer research has to do with a giant telescope that's replacing an outdated one? The one and only thing I have to say about this is, people die every single day from something. My Dad died of cancer last year, but I don't sit and stew over it, and I move on. This is a site supposedly specific to that of scientific minds, but it becomes clogged with people's opinion's of others on here and the discussion becomes off topic.

As for the ACTUAL story.... I've been waiting for years for this telescope to get up there and show us the different bells and whistles it has in comparison to the Hubble.

What Is Science but A Continual Lesson of The Challenge To Studying The Entire Known Existence of Everything.

-Truth-

@eLang

You are right. Nasa did not invent it. What I meant was that it would not be what it is today without the Nasa technologies that have been implemented within modern day MRI scanners.

I'm worried that becosmos might be a troll. Call it paranoia, but after the BubbaGump incident, I'm a little skeptical. He talks about how Nasa only takes 'pretty pictures' but look at his name and picture. I don't know, it doesn't fit with me.

But I'm getting off-topic. My real question is: What's the use of an infared laser? I'm not very savvy on this, though I am an avid reader of popsci. What would this new telescope accomplish that Hubble couldn't?

@becosmos why are you so closed minded and dense about certian things???? "What have we accomplished from Hubble except pretty pictures? Is the price of gas lower? Is my or your paycheck higher? Is medical insurance lower? Has the government balance the budget and stop threatening to lower social security or Medicare? Is our country stopped being at war? Has the AIDs cure been found?"

HUBBLE IS THE SINGLE MOST COST EFFECTIVE EXPERIMENT IN THE HISTORY OF MAN!!!! over 2 million pictures! it has proved countless theories on the composition and history of the universe. something like over 2,000 scientific paper have been written and published DIRECTLY from Hubble findings!

http://hubblesite.org/the_telescope/hubble_essentials/
http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEM106WO4HD_index_0_m.html
you can find 50000 more articles explaining its impact on the scientific world! I mean REALY! what would the world be if Galileo didnt have the telescope to back up his theories! Hubble is NO different!

Readers of this article, I made 3 comments of my view and I say I comment no more to this article. I will keep that. All those came after me offered their points of view. What this is as a whole is a good conversations, a good blog, maybe some call it a good argument. It is a healthy conversation.

Now Romus shows up and insights hate and discontend and offers nothing to the article. His profile is a little over 1 week. I want you to click on his profile and read his comments. They are few and negative towards one purpose.

He also has a buddy in crime also. His name is joshmon999 is a little over 1 week and is all comments are all negative and created for 1 purpose. Today he was successful in getting Tamiko banned.

No Romus is working to get me banned. These logins are malipulation and bulling. Just remember it can happen to you too. I only commented 3 times today and Romus shows up attacking me. What in the hell did I do so wrong? What did Tamiko do so wrong. Please review her last link before getting banned.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-09/pluto-may-be-hiding-oceans-underneath-its-frozen-exterior#comments.

I am sorry for desturbing your artical. Odds are, for what ever reason my account will be blocked tomorrow.
Remember you too can be next! They have learn well how to be malipulative and the administration is on their side.

@becosmos "pheonix1012, I had a cousin die of AIDS and many family members over different periods die of cancer. I just prefer the money to be dumped in to helping others, TODAY, NOW, not from some kind of trick down technology 30 years from now. "

I am sorry to hear about your family members. but you should be more educated on money and cancer and aids research. I am not calling you dumb, or uneducated. you just need to undersatnd more about this. MORE money will not solve these problems right now.
Cancer and Aids research get all the money they need. Have you ever heard of a guy named Bill Gates? maybe? He doesn't work for Microsoft anymore (just sits on the board) he is now a FULL time philanthropist. when asked why is giving much of his his billions to getting 100% kids in Africa vaccinated instead of into Aids research is because he actually did his homework unlike you. given billions to aids research wont help much. you cant force more people into the feild, and the field is at basically at full saturaion, while right now we need and can all the children in afica have a better life with vacimation.

dont think you are special. we have ALL lost someone to cancer. 1/5 of the world will die from cancer! I have nightmares about it. but I dont go around pissed off at every dollar not spent on cancer research.

and yeah. the james webb is probably, like the hubble, going to be single most important scientific experiment in existence, in terms of scientific data it adds and overall knowledge of the universe it expands upon.

@Everyone
Well, I get that much. But what I mean is how will it function? Like, I know (very little at that) that Hubble focused on distant galaxies and all. But how will the infared work?

@ Everyone
Please, everyone, instead of feeding trolls by replying, ignore them. Don't treat them as cancers, since they're not that serious or important to warrant attention. Treat them like a small scratch on the hand. It stings for a while (because it's annoying), but if you COMPLETELY ignore it, the problem will go away and heal. If you see a reply directed to you, and you KNOW it's irrelevant beforehand, don't even bother to reply it. Squash the thought. There's no reason to feed. I will say this little speech and re-post it because honestly, it's worked in other forums. It takes a while, but they do go away. Why? They lose interest. Simple as that. Examples we DON'T want happening again is the BubbaGump incident. We CAN avoid that!

@Romus
Infrared imaging allows for the telescope to see long wave lengths that come from distant galaxies. Dark Energy causes galaxies on the other side of the known universe to "push" away from us at high "speeds", this causes the wavelengths of the light traveling toward us to stretch out and move from the visible light spectrum toward the infrared spectrum.

Now, as for why the James Webb Telescope is better than the Hubble: The Hubble Telescope's technology is decades old now. We've found better ways to produce mirrors that reduce wave distortion on the mirror surface.

After that.. Well, the Hubble has a 2.4 meter mirror - The James Webb has a 6.5 meter mirror. :P A bigger mirror gathers more light, and provides a better resolution. The JWT has nearly 8x more light gathering ability than the Hubble.

@Becosmos
In regards to your original comments: Astronomers DID recently find a way to help treat cancers by observing black hole activity.

@becosmos

The cure to AIDS is to get tested before having sex, and then have sex with only those who can provide their own test results, and to test blood better. More cancers are caused by preventable actions and ways of living, ban smoking, ban internal combustion engines, ban all environmental causes of cancer... that'd save money too.

No one answered you in a hateful manner up to the post where you reasoned that others would respond to you in such a way...

You incited kokfan50 and inaka)rob to answer you in a nasty manner, congrats, to all of you.

Romas didn't incite hate, YOU did, not a very good job passing the buck, considering your comments and the trail of events being completely public.

On topic: I can't wait to start seeing real-color images of the infrared data gathered by JWST, I hope it doesn't get cancelled, it still could you know... it depends on how many people like becosmos get heard by those in charge of where money is spent.

@Becosmos
Also, it seems that gamers unraveled the AIDS enzyme in about three weeks for free. This is something researchers have been working on for over a decade. Sometimes the best answers come from a completely different subject. :)

Maybe one day soon our scientist will find that cheap and easy energy source of electricity. I be all for the NASA, HUBBLE, JAMES WEBB Telescope and more. It could be as much like the utopia future of Star Trek, where energy and money seems free everywhere and people just live life pursuing being the best they are on the inside. Finally much disease and suffering would be gone too. Dare to dream, ey. There be much less hate mongrels in society too. I really do love science, the stars and cosmos. Hence look at my login. Sometimes though on certain days I get sentimental and feel for those who are sick.

Is it possible to swing the HUBBLE about and take some detail, clear pictures of the Apollo landing equipment, and tracks, disturbances on the moon ground?

I wonder if the pictures would be better, clearer and show more detail than the ones the Japanese produce recently?

Hubble & Cosmic Expansion

The theory of Cosmic Expansion is based on the red shift seen in the photos from the Hubble Telescope. The theory assumes that the red shift is entirely due to the Doppler Effect and concludes that the farther away something is, the faster it is going away. To accelerate all the mass in increasing expansion requires a tremendous amount of power and energy. This theory of expansion violates the law of conservation of energy if the energy source is not identified. To balance the energy equation, the theory suggests the existence of Dark Energy.

IMO, the theory of Cosmic Expansion is wrong because it is based on a wrong assumption (that the red shift is entirely due to the Doppler Effect). Conclusions of the Cosmic Expansion theory violate the law of conservation of energy unless some unknown force is powering it.

A simpler explanation is that the red shift is not entirely due to the Doppler Effect. The red shift is the result of the Doppler Effect and Frequency Decay.

Are the frequencies of a photon constant for the life of the photon? Do the frequencies decay, like signal degradation of an analog signal? If the frequency decays over time and length, then the wavelength will increase, causing a red shift. Older photons from farther away will have more Frequency Decay and red shift than newer photons from a source that is nearer. Red shift from Frequency Decay is different than red shift from the Doppler Effect. Frequency Decay and the Doppler Effect both contribute to the total red shift.

If the red shift is not entirely due to the Doppler Effect, then measurements of the red shift can not prove that “the farther away something is, the faster it is going away.” The red shift measurements do not prove that the universe is ever expanding at an accelerating pace powered by a mysterious force and energy. More likely, measurements of the red shift indicate that “the farther away something is, the older the photons are when they get here.”

Thanks,
-Tony

@Tony_Who
The expansion of the Universe isn't really all objects moving away from each other, it's more like the empty space between the objects expanding or "swelling".

@MadCobbler

So basically it's better, stronger, and faster? I read some stuff up on google because despite my interest in science, I don't know much. I read about redshit, which is the spectrum of light that occurs when the light is stretched out due to distance. Is this due to dark matter? Or is it related to something else? If we have opposing universes (which I also read) then have we been able to see it? I wonder if we have a polar opposite earth somewhere. Same civilization and all that, but composed of different materials. That would be weird to think. I recently read the 'faster than light' article. Reminds me of something called "The Last Question" by Issac Asimov. It's interesting if you read it. We might not be the first humans to have ever existed, or to even exist in the future.

@Everyone
In the event that Gumba or the troll that frequents this place decides to comment. Ignore it. They are usually irrelevant, unnecessary, and provoke people to fight with him. Don't feed and if he calls u out, read past comment. Simple.

@Romus
Pretty much. Give it a few decades, and even the JWST will be under review for replacement by something better.

Dark Matter has nothing to do with red shift, it's just a form of matter that is non-interacting with light (hence, the "dark"). Light waves are affected by Dark Energy ("dark" in this case, meaning "unknown"), which pushes all matter and matter-interacting energies away from each other and themselves. This is believe to cause light waves to elongate and shift towards the infrared part of the light spectrum.

@MadCobbler "Give it a few decades, and even the JWST will be under review for replacement by something better."

you are dead wrong!!! no just kidding :) you are really dead right! The successor to the James Webb is ALREADY in planning stages. they know it will take decades to get the next one paid for, designed, and built, so they have already started. I dont think it very far along, but it is definitely confirmed to be already in the works.

If you prefer medical research over space related research, you can donate to one of the hundreds if not thousands of private and government facilities conducting that type of research.

The difference between this telescope and medical research is that without this funding, everything halts. Soon, the hubble will be retired and we won't have a telescope out there. Even if we did redirect that money towards medical research, it wouldn't have any significant impact as far as actually curing diseases.

Take a look at some of the other posts on this website, there are tons of huge medical advances pumped out on a regular basis. Fact is, medical research is a huge industry with tremendous funding. It's not as if cures are purchasable, and we're "saving up" for it- all we can do is fund the research and be on our way to finding more cures for more diseases. And that much is being done, with or without cutting funding for something else.

If any argument is to be made, it's that the funding NASA is asking for translates to only a couple days of military spending of the war against terror. We as a nation question a couple days of that type of spending for priceless contributions towards science, but yet fund a war for over ten years that regardless of how it's twisted and turned has only done one thing: killed people.

dear those who comment stuff like "space funding is a waste and it should be used to cure cancer/feed the starving" you are idiots. if we spend money on either of these things than there will only be more people to starve in this world.
but if we get more resources or better resource collection methods more people will not starve.