LHC Test Could Lead to Hyperdrive Space Propulsion (Well, In Theory)

while I understand the basic ideas behind many of these experiments, the massive costs of these types of projects are not gonna pay for themselves any time soon. Once in a while one of the experiments makes everyone say ooh, neat. Then we throw another billion on the fire. Then we get to hear about all the neat esoteric things we MIGHT learn, might not. Even if we did learn to see a specific particle in twenty years or so, how much longer before any use would come of it? 100 years? Longer? And how much is the cost to humanity then? I mean, really, isn't there a much greater chance we will consume all the natural resources of Africa and Middle East before any use could possibly come of this? South America too, I should think, with these things popping up all over like the governments of the world got the billions to spend. I guess it will be nice for the few if there aren't that many humans that are still around to benefit from this in the future, but the oh so intelligent doctors of energy never think in terms of the real human cost of this waste. There are still brown people to rob for their birthrights, throw another billion on, gettin cold at the LHC.

@quasi44

So because we have no chance of seeing such space propulsion in our lives, we should not look? I get discouraged when I read/hear opinions like that, because I find them so shortsighted.

There's no doubt that the LHC is a humongous project, requiring awesome monetary resources. Some people say that the LHC is the most complex machine humanity has ever built. It is precisely for that reason that it's worthwhile. We have already learned so much from building the thing (everything from project management, to telecommunications, to material sciences,...). Plus, when CERN fine tunes it (i.e. gets it working properly and in a stable manner), then we have years of groundbreaking science to look forward to. Add to that the fact that CERN (who runs LHC) is an international organisation that employs almost 3000 people, and that nearly 8000 scientists and engineers pass by to do research. This is all done in the pursuit of knowledge. Isn't that worth 5.5 billion? I see it as a step in the right direction.

If you really must complain, go complain about military projects that cost 10 times as much and bring so much less to the table (see the 65 billion for the F-22 Raptor program, or the near-billion for each naval ship, or the 2 billion and more for each submarine).

Getting no results, or not getting the result expected from an experiment doesn't mean you didn't learn anything. Every educational endeavor is worth it, because a negative answer is just as informative as a positive one. If it doesn't work, this is what you learned: it doesn't work; try something else. It's still learning.

Here is a concept - stop charging for things that benefit mankind. Pool our resources together for such things, rather than see who can get rich.

I know, very Star Trek. Our species is not likely to make it that far.

On Topic:
I don't get this, this would be like shooting an elephant with a bb gun and the elephant flies over your house. Where does conservation of energy come in? I have a bb gun, if anyone has an elephant bring it over and we'll test our new hyperdrive. Off to wikipedia to read about Hilbert's theory.

Off Topic:
@qausi44
"rob brown people of their birth right"??? What brown people do you see being robbed? billions in aid going to those very places you name, very little being "taken" without large amounts of money being paid. for oil etc. Comparing buying oil to robbing would be like you buying a sandwich, eat it and then say you were robbed because it's gone. No people on earth have done more for others than we have i.e. America and Europe. There are negatives in spades as well, but those very negatives have been done by every group on earth to every group, throughout all of history, in every corner of the globe from every group to every group, if one group didn't do something to some other group its simply because they lacked opportunity. Now if you want to talk about individuals, then we can certainly say a person did something, but in generality its patently false. It's time to stop this idiocy.

I guess the LHC stationary walls did not repel the near speed of light protons earlier this year.

@Quasi44 "rob brown people of their birth right"? don't worry, we gave Obama the peace prize to make up for all that. This is about as political as giving Al Gore the peace prize for all his ground breaking work in the global warming belief.

Or 700 billion for financial institutions that sell insurance to other financial institutions that made bad investments on other financial institutions' financial institutions?

Last time I checked, a man's birthright is derived from his father. Humans are not born with an entitlement to land or possession. If I buy a man's land, I have not stolen his son's birthright, I've merely made that land my son's birthright. A "brown man," as you call him, born in Africa has no more right to the land than a yellow, white, or red man born there.

Your clearly racist and condecending statement of the rich man's burden to help humanity is shortsighted. The advancement of humankind as a species in knowledge is far more important that merely aiding a few suffering humans for a moment.

So, why not throw another billion into Africa. Save millions from starvations. They will then breed into billions. Good luck feeding them then, oh grand father and benefactor of the human race.

Hey peoples try to ignore the stupid first post. It was probably designed to get the thread off topic. Anyways... these sorts of projects always start off very murky and have many unknowns. Just look at the Manhatten project and see how they developed a few theroies into one of the biggest game changing inventions ever. There will be an eventual pay off from buildinh the LHC. (Even if we cant see it ourselves)

I find complaints about the cost of the LHC - given that it is not clear what the technological benefits could be in the long term - ironic. The reason is because these complaints are often stated on the internet. The foundation of the internet was originally devised by someone working at CERN.

Perhaps it would be safer to transport the giant LHC from Switzerland to the Moon, and conduct the experiment from the lunar surface, if that would be possible.

Remember some science fiction ideas that was predicted in the past that were thought of being outlandish at the time has become reality.

stryker222 Oakspar,seems to be the only one to really make a lot of sence.Or I should say,uses common sence.And that is a very rare thing in todays world.You can see where this country is headed with hand wringers in charge.lol Science as well as most other endevors needs strong leadership.Not just never ending speaches.

@quasi44

You writing that comment using the Internet is a result of the US government "wasting" resources on unprofitable communication system. We are often unable to predict how fast we are going to develop certain technologies. But some examples - such as the atomic bomb, the Internet, nanotechnology - shows us that some inventions may pay off sooner than later. And the LHC is already built. Why not give it a try?

I'll keep my chin up :D

I find this article rather redundant..esp since we already
have faster than light ships in Black Ops projects, namely incarnations of the TR3B.

The LHC project on the whole is just another mathematical black hole created by theoretical mathematicians as a way to gain access to ludicrous government funding based on pure fantasies like Black Holes and the BBT.

If you merely scratch the surface of almost all modern science, you find it almost entirely based on *a stack* of yet-to-be proven theories. when new evidence is brought to light that contradicts current "theory-as-fact" facts, -the theoretical mathematicians quickly produce yet another pie-in-the-sky fantasy-theory to explain away the
offending "real evidence" -which is then of course, is summarily buried.

For instance, why do we continue to search for the
"elusive Graviton" when we already know there is no such thing? -that the gravity is just another part of the electromagnetic spectrum. -a helical (corkscrew) polarized EM wave that is produced by the spin inherent to all atoms? -that this escaped discovery because everyone assumed neutrons do "nothing special" and/or failed to notice in part, that magnetic elements all have in common, extra neutrons??

The only mystery is why is that we still pour trillions of dollars into this huge charade, -or that as another poster above noted, to paraphrase, that we even dare to "charge" humanity actual money for something that would greatly benefit all mankind?

Seriously, people, stop allowing the politics of greed
and religion to destroy humanity. -the ancient Egyptians knew how to harness the inherent energy of the planet with simple pyramids.. how is it that we, in the case of our space program, are still launching effin rockets into space
that have remained unchanged in principal, since their debut as the V2 rocket in World War II??

(and yet, are completely detached from the Moore's Law of technological growth/advancement associated with the computers that design and control them? does anyone really believe this? -why?)

This, especially when we have had patents for devices to
create energy from the Aether, or quite simply, the
resonant energy from the Earth's "resonating" magnetic field for centuries.

What has to be done to release the technology that the black ops projects are based on to the public?

--technology, that is based on works created/rediscovered in the 1800's and 1900's by the likes of men like Tesla, Moray and Maxwell?

If you find any of the above fantasy, you can begin to open your eyes by discovering the Electric Universe Theory by Wal Thornhill and David Scott at holoscience.com and thunderbolts.info.

Ask yourself this: How is it that we are taught about the
multitude of magnetic fields and plasmas that permeate
through all the known universe and surround and connect practically every celestial object known to man, yet nowhere do we find mention of any electrical currents that produce them?

We are basically led to believe that these magnetic
fields are created from nothing, just like The Universe. -how absurd.

I posit that we been led to believe in a Mirror Image World where our perceived reality is actually fantasy, and that which we consider fantasy and science fiction, is the true Reality.

Time is short. Very soon, The Universe will demand that the truth be known.

I suggest to all those not in the know, that you learn the basics of this truth, -lest you be shocked beyond compare when the illusion is finally dissolved before your very eyes and Reality smacks you in the forehead.

-s

@soundwash - Wow ... all this time I thought we were regressing in our ability to build anything useful (like build skyscrapers in NY city, space shuttle replacements, build breeder nuclear reactors in America, civilian supersonic flight, make steel in US of A, create new hydrogen bomb designs, or go back to the moon).

*Here is a small glimmer of mankind reaching out and building something useful(LHC)for the small price of a duel unit nuclear reactor and here comes the parade of mental nuts!

*Now my reality and universe will "smack me in the forehead"!

*I am going to watch the movie Armageddon again and again and wish with all my might, that movie the stars like Bruce Willis will save my reality before it bludgeons my forehead.

*Thank you for opening my eyes to your fantasy.

Something from nothing can be possible when examined theoretically and logically.

It is possible for an external mass of matter existing on a Radiated;Faster/Slower animation rate to have an effect on the present acknowledged by humans in an instance of how fast we perceive units of light and react.

The only problem i see with this hyper velocity propulsion is that you could end up in solid material like rock and be completely mangled like a bad glitch.
It would have to be an extremely precise computing system to be able to assure clear of obstacle when arriving at the destination.

So a cuppla you got a sore spot where I put the dart about BIG spending for little to no value. Tuff beans. Ya really don't need to explain too much bout this cash cow called LHC, I know what the thing is. I know what all of them are. And I know the cost of these things is in TRILLIONS, whenever you get done. There are what, 27 of these things around the world, and of all of them, how much of the total bill do WE pay? If just one big question gets answered, it will take us at least 50, probably 100 years, to make use of it. The nation is BROKE, Mr. Scientist, got a Higgs Bosun to turn into a job for any of the people out of work around here? Yer big beam accelerator with the half Siberian Snake gonna make up for the services I can't get for my family 'cause we had to pay for this crap? Make no mistake, people. I'm as much a seeker as anyone, and more than most. At this time though, we are not in the position financially to be spending on this. It hurts our nation, and if YOU do not see that, and the effects of what our nation DOES DO to others when we get broke, then it is you who are small in mind.

Maybe I shouldn't worry about the college education that WAS funded by a Dept Education grant to the state of Washington, that was there until 9 months before Bush left office. No money there anymore, nor any state. The college education of your kids that there WAS money for, for every state, No Child Left Behind. Guess that's true if you are a Dr. of somethin or other workin at this or that cash cow, bein paid MY money, and way too much of it for the little you do.

quasi44. what have you done for the blacks in africa? why dont you pack up your family and go there and make a change rather then come on here and bitch how you cant cope with things. stop blaming others for your lack ofs, and shut the fk up

Isn't it strange, that I come on here and say every word truth as I can find it, and get straight hate. My only reply to the hate is this simple truth. If YOU had to earn the money to pay for this crap, DR., it would not get done because what you produce is not worth the cost. Not at this time is my position, and I'll stick with it, but thanks for letting me know I'm right. So you just sit there on your butt sucking money off the cash cow, I gotta go to my REAL JOB.

Seems to me also that the straight unadulterated hatred being pumped out by the supporters and purveyors of these projects towards anyone who dares question current financial feasibility is argument enough against it. How very republican of you. Only one thing missing, no one played the fear card trying to make me run hide, just implications of universal hatred towards Africans, and willingness to sacrifice the collective education of a generation of American kids to pay off their bad science. Once again, I do not say this tech is not good, that may prove to be true, but I do not know that. It is bad at this time.

By the way. just a reality check for ya. Pre-Cheneybush, an American citizen fully employed in manufacturing, which we use as a common base, had a lifetime expected earnings potential, with prudent investments and retirement package, of about 1.8 mil. How many of us have had to have had our retirements, kids college, health insurance and outright cash stolen to pay for this stuff?

Dont use imperial facts as evidence to off topic claims with little relevance without explanation. i.e. Politics.

@quasi44

Just you mate, just you.

Instead of blaming the world for your tragedies, how about you make take responsibility for your personal life and kick yourself in the pants and get yourself started again. No use in complaining about something if you don’t do anything to fix it.

You complain about the amounts of funding poured into "science projects" like this, but the reality is, the vast majority of the things you use are based upon funding poured into projects like this.

If you dislike these types of projects, I suggest that you quit your hypocritical ways and retreat to the back woods of the world where you have no technology and you live completely off of the environment.

@soundwash

Conspiracy much?

The funny thing is, I actually googled the TR3B. First of all the supposed "real" video looked auspiciously like it had been created on someone's computer, which automatically brought into question its authenticity. The camera movements were too smooth to be amateur video and the focus of the camera did not go in and out of focus like it would really do if it were a real video.

Second of all, assuming that this TR3B actually existed (and it very well may, look at the B-2 and the F-117), there was no information out there that I could find that gave ANY indication of this vessel's capability of FTL travel.

It makes me wonder the extent of your gullibility. It's rather sad actually...

@suggestivesimon

How much of military technology finds its way back to civilian practical applications? Flying by the seat of my pants here, but I'd say in the ballpark of 90% of R&D on military tech projects finds it's way back to civilian applications. Complain about the spending all you want but realize where a large portion of the technology you use comes from.

Never said I don't like these types of projects, as a matter of fact, I do. Not right now is my position. Our national infrastructure is a trainwreck from all the monies being siphoned off. But all any of you got is hate and spew. Just remember who made the device in your car that saves you in a frontal impact, 'cause if you drive a modern Ford, it was me.

same old hate game anytime someone wants return on investment from a cash cow project.

Well, I dont drive a Ford. So you arent the one saving me in a crash. :-O

If virtual particles in some field could be synchronized or polarized, they should create a drag to another object. Adding their momentum should work. But how to create an effect before the cause for it has started. Theory predicts repulsive force would appear on stationary object, but in a relativistic view all objects are moving at different speed and direction. So even if protons will follow the geodesic line, whole system will move and desynchronize an effect, directing repulsive wave interference spikes away from vibrating mass detector. They would need some kind of a gravity diode, virtual particle capacitor, gravity buster... :)
Same debate as now for LHC was over Voyager, Apollo and Hubble, some of the best machines humanity has ever build. Because of them universe is quite different now. I believe what every human being need is clean ear, water, food and safe, healthy space to live in. So we must find solutions to our common needs and as soon as we can, to prevent eugenics and other discriminatory theories to shape our world for us and all other living spices, into something never seen before. No god, prophet or other divine man in history hasn't warned or teach us how to deal with machines and other technologies, that really changed our lives, believes and values. This time we are on our own, nobody can save us from technology we created, so every new scientific discovery is important for survival of all life on the planet. And if science truly want to change the world, build a food replicator!

YADDA! YADDA! YADDA!

quasi44 - It will never cease to amaze me how people who pay very little in taxes (or, especially none at all) complain the most about what taxes are spent on. Now, if you claim to be in the top 1% of the richest people in the United States, AND can prove it, then I will have no problem listening to your complaints. If you ARE in the top 1%, then you, along with the other 90,000+, pay 50% of the taxes collected by the IRS each and every year. It's REALLY funny how most of the people complaining about having to pay taxes and where that tax money is spent usually get up to a little over $4000 back, each year, in FREE money! All because they either can't keep their legs closed, their junk in their drawers, or don't use contreceptives. So they end up pumping out babies like it's some magick trick they never get tired of watching. "Ohhh, cool! Look at me! I'm a daddy for the 15th time, even though I have no job, am a junkie, and already a bane on society, I can still get my ol' lady pregos! Woohoo! I'm a MAN!" No, that person and all those like him are just leaches and the world would be better off without them. You want to help our economy, get rid of all these wasteful, pointless LIBERAL programs like welfare and foodstamps and homeless shelters and prisons for the criminally insane and the incurable criminals (which is most of them that are in prison, by the way). What society does with these parisites isn't up to just me...we'd take a vote, of course. And, if the majority of us had any sense, we'd send them all to Africa or, better yet, Canada or Mexico, or some other out-of-the-way place that no one really cares about. THAT'S what is really bringing our nation to its knees, not scientific endeavors like the LHC. And for those of you worried about some scientists claiming that the LHC, when finally turned on full force, will create black holes that will gobble up our planet and maybe even our solar system, just remember...when they were first going to test the atom bomb, there were many scientists who truly, deeply believed it would set the atmosphere on fire and burn it away. Didn't happen, did it?

Mycellium - You're not too far off the mark. But, in reality, if the craft is the size of a Space Shuttle (without booster rockets) then the analogy would be more like shooting the Empire State Building with BBs. However, you have to keep in mind that it's in the BILLIONS if not TRILLIONS per SECOND that would be impacting the surface of the craft (obviously some type of protective shield would be what is actually struck) to propel it. Of course, when you scale down the Empire State Building to the size of the Space Shuttle the BBs will get scaled down to the size of atoms. That is an approximation, anyway, of how the ion engine works, too, and those are functioning, now. And, keep in mind that the craft will already be in orbit...it doesn't have to be launched by this propulsion system, just nudged continually. Ordinary rockets will probably do the actual launching of the craft into space, first. Newton's Laws of Motion are powerful things, especially when given enough time.

(off topic) I'm suitably impressed that a large number of you folks were able to overlook the goofy comments and express a coherent opinion about an interesting and important topic. As a card-carrying member of the human race, I apologize for the occasional dingbats that you have to wade through on this planet we inhabit. Please believe me, they're really in the minority, even if it doesn't seem like it sometimes.

(on topic) this is sort of far-fetched if you attempt to account for the conservation of matter and energy. In this layman's view, you'd essentially need a massive continuous fusion reaction to generate the required volume of these particles. And if you already had a mobile fusion reaction in your back pocket, there are probably more conventional alternative methods of propulsion that could accomplish the same velocity. Nonetheless, a fascinating and exciting theoretical concept. Very cool.

Chuck

Robert1234: The concept of this functioning has some important ramifications from the idea of equal and opposite reactions. Yes, the "push" of a space craft from a planet might seem insignificant UNTIL you consider the mass of the spaceship is HUGE due to it's relative velocity, reaching near infinite mass near the speed of light. Thus, the "push" of a near infinite mass from a planet may be enough to smash it into dust, displace it's orbit, etc. That may be a real drawback to this concept. After all, what's the most "stationary" object relative to a spaceship...Earth.

Xspot
I completely agree with your suggestive opinion.

Especially about a Food Replicator. People need energy to perform properly, and not enough of us get our daily nutritional value's and +. With obviously the expense as issue.
Once we start growing meat with future stem cell genetic research we could have prime cuts incredibly affordable and plenty to offer already "trimmed".

www.darkfx.cjb.net

@quasi

Please don't pervert science with your politics. Spreading "awareness" of your cause is a sad attempt at taking action, you are as lazy and self indulgent as the rest of us, welcome to humanity.

When is the LHC supposed to be up and running? Last update I heard was for sometime this month.

How assumptive that one of you thinks I get 4k in taxes back, never in my life have I ever gotten more than 500 in overpayment back. Another thinks that just because I'm loud on this site about the sacrifice of real human need in this country, to spend more on stuff like this, where none of the other accelerators have paid off much for all the cash invested. Not saying they won't, as a matter of fact, I think they EVENTUALLY will. These things ain't gonna rust, and we have a lot of need elsewhere. This thing gonna give the current young adults all over the country their college cash back? No, and there are few jobs for them to earn their way in, so half? Don't get to attend college, at least not this year, probably longer. It will cost us, in world market competition. The different projects and yes, experiments, like the lunar impact water hunt, have HARD value, and I support them fully, just as vocally as here, where I do not.

@quasi44:
I'm assuming the 4K tax thingy is over the span of your life.

and seriously, I will laugh if this LHC saves the economy's butt. Think about it, the possibilities of whatever results come out: If this LHC test comes out to prove this Hyperdrive thingy, some engineer could turn the technology to be some exotic jet engine that would save a bajillion dollars in fuel. giant reduction in co2, right? budget cut from enviornmental projects means less taxes. advanced rocket engine? less money dumped in rocket launches.

Its why we think you're a bit short-sighted. You're only moaning about the costs while we see the potent of the return profit. You can compare this situation between long-term projects and short-term projects: instead of raising taxes, the US is promoting education. In turn, the smart ppl will provide more upper-end tax payers (the whole income vs tax-rating thing?) so that the required amount of tax janitors and burger flippers pay remain low. Additionally, the mayors/governors or whatever are still meeting the income they want, right?

and honestly, why are you even on a science website if ur just going to flame the projects they do to create tech, which is what science is almost completely about? go back to flipping burgers in BK. maybe you'll have more money to feed to your 15th child just because you thought birth control was too expensive.

Way to derail the whole topic Quasi44, if you want to scream at white people and republicans go to another website.

I find this promising but I would like to see something concrete on this soon (but thats just the impatient nerd in me). I am very interested in the "solar sail" technology that PRIVATE investors are funding but has seen some failures in getting it off the ground (literally).

The only way this stuff is going to get anywhere is with our support and understanding that some things are going to take time to come to fruition. We are talking about a new form of propulsion that not only could give us a faster way to explore our solar system and galaxy but it may also give us new forms of energy production that I think we can all agree would be a good thing.

Too bad this thread has degenerated -- in fact, did so nearly immediately -- to the point of worthlessness in terms of trying to have an intelligent discussion of what, if any, possibilities the LHC may offer.

And let me thank those here who tried to return the thread to the topic.