This seems like a long to me as well... It's going to happen, is it just a question of whether it'll happen by the date?

Why is the price dropping so much.

because time is running out and not much has been written about it in the news except that it will be ready for the olympics which are in august but this ends june 1

I guess some people reacted to the news that a more-reliable HGH test will be available IN A FEW MONTHS got a few people buying this stock.

Yup, the new test is months away. If you read the article at
http://www.todayonline.com/articles/251447.asp
you'll notice these two comments;

"WADA director general David Howman said every country with an accredited laboratory would receive the HGH-testing kits within months."

and....

"Howman said athletes using this method would now face a problem, as there would be a test for HGH at Beijing after difficulties with the HGH testing kits are resolved."

And even if the Olympic HGH test kit was being used to test Olympic athletes at home and in Beijing, because the test must become "commercially available by June 1, 2008" to satisfy the prop. Yes, "Commercially", as in "on the market". The Olympic test will be for the Olympics only, not for sale for general use... yet.

Short short short.

The term "commercially" has me wondering about the payout of this prop. From what I understand, they already have some preliminary tests that are being shipped out. In fact, the Brits are conducting a pre-Olympics test and HGH is one of those being tested for.

”This is the largest pre-Olympic programme we have ever done and the testing for HGH is to be rolled out as part of that work. Most of the testing, including that for HGH, will be on a ‘no-notice, out-of-competition’ basis. We have not warned competitors that they may be tested for HGH, which is already a banned substance.” - Russell Langley, spokesman on drugs for UK Sport
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/athletics/article3908491.ece

But what exactly is "commercially available" in terms of anti-doping tests? I would think that if these kits are **payed for** by the WAPA certified labs or corresponding government agencies, then this could be considered "commercially" supplied. Any body with some insight on the markets/economics for testing labs?

That Times article is interesting

In the first paragraph it mentions that the program will begin shortly (how shortly it doesn't say, there are only 2 and a half weeks left in this) and the last paragraph says this:
"A German company has now manufactured thousands of kits for the testing and these are being distributed to several countries including Britain as part of the continuing struggle against the scourge of modern sport "

Earlier in the article it mentions the German group: "Two research teams working independently have provided their findings to the Wada, which has accepted the one of the German group in Berlin..." Therefore, WADA thinks this particular test is good enough.

It seems that the kits are already made and currently being shipped to countries to use, so they are "available." But as for "commercially available", not sure...I am asking the admins.

I'm starting to think that this will be long:

WADA has approved the German test for HGH which has been "distributed to several countries" by this German company. The Southampton University test (despite being funded by WADA) has not been endorsed yet by WADA.

What we know: -two tests have been developed by two separate groups
-one of the two tests has had their findings "accepted" by the agency while the other seems close to it.
-the already accepted test has been "manufactured ... and ... are being distributed".

I can only assume that this company wants financial compensation for both manufacturing and proprietary technology. Hence, they would be paid for. Hence, it would be commercial.

Any body want to back me up on this reasoning?

theKov

sorry for the double post but just found this direct from the World Anti-Doping Agency:

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/dynamic.ch2?pageCategory.id=627
(no date on the page itself but page info shows last modified, "Friday, May 16, 2008 2:58:40 PM" - must've popped up while I was doing my searching)

Key paragraphs:

Why has there been only a limited implementation of the current hGH test?
* The current test is based on the blood matrix and has been implemented on a limited scale to a number of the WADA-accredited anti-doping laboratories worldwide.
* The antibodies used for the current tests are produced in a research environment. The production of antibodies in a research environment is characteristically small.
* Industrial production of the anti-bodies is the next step for the widespread implementation of the hGH test.

When will the industrial production be ready?
* A proto-type of a kit has been made. WADA is moving to the final stage which involves working with a new company for its large scale production and distribution. The kits have now been validated, and mass production of the kits has started.

The fact that it is not 'industrial' production yet may stop this prop from fulfilling.

Discuss

It only has until June 1, right?

Nothing to discuss.

Short
shor
sho
sh
s

Testing for EVERYTHING is such a fool's game.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2008-05-27-hgh-cover_N.htm

Society is definitely going to have to Get The Hell Over It about these things, because we are damn sure NEVER going to win the "war on whatever."

In general, "War on {noun}" efforts are futile political grandstanding that yields no net common good.

I don't know where this 'war on ....' comment came from or what we have to get the hell over but I'll accept and move on.

Agencies such as the WADA serve the same purpose as courts in a democratic society; both as a deterrant to potential commitors and as an adjudicator when culpability is in question. I personally don't want to see sports turn into 'super human' feats where the fame and money is worth any sort of effect on your body. The appeal of sports is to test the limits of human physicality.

Sure, we may not be able to detect all forms of human enhancement, sure the criminals will always be one step ahead but it is society's roll to at least attempt to keep pace.

" Agencies such as the WADA serve the same purpose as courts in a democratic society; both as a deterrant to potential commitors and as an adjudicator when culpability is in question."

Not remotely. WADA stands between the economic force of the the incentives to win no matter what and the market-driven escalation of the technical means to do it AND evade detection. It's hard to envy them their stance between the hammer and the anvil.

You may not WANT sport to turn into " 'super human' feats where the fame and money is worth any sort of effect on your body" but it has. If you're a sports fan you have probably spent enough money in response to Budweiser and Chevy ads that you share a portion of the culpability for doing it. As an old HR director I worked with used to say, you get what you incent.

If you think sports should be competition with honor and devoid of cheating then you have to work to take the economic incentives out of cheating. The only remaining incentive to do sports must be the joy of doing it.

Sure, tell me that's utopian. However, leaving sports-supremacy worth billions of dollars and trying to remove performance-enhancers from the playing field is like flicking the flies away from the s***-pile and pronouncing the barn clean. You don't fool anyone, least of all the flies (look, they're back).

"WADA stands between the economic force of the the incentives to win no matter what and the market-driven escalation of the technical means to do it AND evade detection. It's hard to envy them their stance between the hammer and the anvil."

Courts, laws and enforcement stand between the economic force of the incentives to steal, murder, buy/sell illegal products and the opportunities to do so AND evade detection.

Agreed: The economic incentive to win at all costs is HUGE and many people will do what it takes to win. There is practically no method of removing this (excessive) reward for winning. Expecting people to play sports (professionally or internationally) just for the fun of it is extremely utopian and idealistic. We can attempt to impose as many controls on the situation as possible to act as a balancing force against the incentive to win at all costs. There are rules to be followed, both personal enhancement rules and sport specific rules. There must be enforcement to decide when the rules are violated.

I think we're arguing the same thing but different ways.

This has halted. For some reason I have a "gut feeling" this one is going to take to at least the end of the week to payout. There is enough ambiguity (sp?) with its availability to give the admins a hard time to decide that it was not "commercially" available to satisfy the payout criteria.

this has paid out LONG!
And I was losing over $20k today BRFORE it paid out!
Why did this go long?!?

I'd like to know the same thing.

Admins, show your stuff!

Visit the Unofficial PPX Community

This paying out long is yet another example of the PPX exchange admin's a$$holery. The HGH test has not become COMMERCIALLY available in any sense. You cannot purchase the kit, it is not for sale, and it is being used only in connection with the Olympics, making it the exact opposite of commercially available. The test is, in fact, a proprietary product.

For an organization that produces a MAGAZINE, ferchrisake, these people have an amazingly poor command of the English language.

Hint for the future, PopSci--IF YOU AREN'T CLEAR ON WHAT A WORD REALLY MEANS, DON'T INCLUDE IT IN A PROP!!!

If anyone here can purchase a HGH test anywhere in the next week, I'll accept that this paid the correct way and shut up. Until then...

I'm fairly new to this. I had this short. How do I find out how PPX decided this was a long? Is there someplace on this site where they justify their decision? This seems a bit subjective to me. Can someone please direct me to where the admins got their info to declare this a long? Is there anyway to question the outcome of this decision? Can this be appealed or do I just have to accept this as fact? It still seems to me that it should pay out short.

Let's see a link to a website where I can purchase this test COMMERCIALLY! This should not have gone long. I think I just lost my enthusiasm for the exchange. Probably not going to come back unless they fix this MISTAKE.

Check out his site http://www.wada-ama.org/en/newsarticle.ch2?articleId=3115571
It appears that as far back ago as January 16, 2008 the World Anti-Doping Agency went or record saying that a scientifically valid and effective test for HGH exists, commercial kits are in development for future LARGE scale testing, There is a test, there are many approved FDA HGH test kits approved for sale in the US.

The WADA had already declared the current commericial tests reliable.

I lost on this one, I thought that there was no existing product that met the criteria, and something would need to happen in order for such a product to come into being. It appears there has been such a product form the start of this prop.

I guess that is why this is called entertainment, you never know what to expect. It is kinda like Forrest Gump or a box a chocolates as his mother used to say.

This is really disconcerting. Has it yet been brought up in the Tech Support forum?

Also, I really like the idea of having a place for decisions to be justified by those making them.

Visit the Unofficial PPX Community

Sorry, I just checked the Tech Support thread. So never mind about that part.

Visit the Unofficial PPX Community

this is bullshit
sry but i quit!

Was anyone else the victim of an error during the delisting of this stock? I not only lost the money I had invested in HGHTEST, but my account was debited for an additional $27,000! I'm left with a negative balance in my account.
I didn't even know the account could go negative. Any of you pros able to help me out? Who do I contact to fix it?

Well then Dakota, it should have been halted in January.

Dakota:

The link you posted specifically says "Commercial kits are in development for future large scale testing." It does not say that the kits are actually available, which is what the prop requires.

Here's how the American Heritage dictionary defines "commercial";

1.) Of or relating to commerce: a commercial loan; a commercial attach.
2.) Engaged in commerce: a commercial trucker.
Involved in work that is intended for the mass market: a commercial artist.
3.) Of, relating to, or being goods, often unrefined, produced and distributed in large quantities for use by industry.
4.) Having profit as a chief aim: a commercial book, not a scholarly tome.
5.) Sponsored by an advertiser or supported by advertising: commercial television.

None of these definitions apply to the HGH test WADA has deemed "reliable". In fact, they are not yet commercially available. Check out:

http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=85695&fm=newsmain,narts

Pay attention to the line "Accredited laboratories worldwide are expected to receive new human growth hormone test kits from WADA in the next few weeks." This is from an article date May 28, 2008.

Regardless, the test for the Olympics is not commercial. It is not mass market, it is only for the Olympics; it is being distributed by a non-profit (WADA), not for profit; and it is not being produced and distributed in mass quantities--in fact, it's being produced and has not been distributed yet.

In no way is the test "commercially available".

Like I said before, PopSci would be well-served if they understood what a word means before they put it in a prop. That one word, "commercially", completely skewed the meaning of the prop, and then they paid it off because some lazy ass didn't want to do their job correctly.

Dakota:

The link you posted specifically says "Commercial kits are in development for future large scale testing." It does not say that the kits are actually available, which is what the prop requires.

Here's how the American Heritage dictionary defines "commercial";

1.) Of or relating to commerce: a commercial loan; a commercial attach.
2.) Engaged in commerce: a commercial trucker.
Involved in work that is intended for the mass market: a commercial artist.
3.) Of, relating to, or being goods, often unrefined, produced and distributed in large quantities for use by industry.
4.) Having profit as a chief aim: a commercial book, not a scholarly tome.
5.) Sponsored by an advertiser or supported by advertising: commercial television.

None of these definitions apply to the HGH test WADA has deemed "reliable". In fact, they are not yet commercially available. Check out:

http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=85695&fm=newsmain,narts

Pay attention to the line "Accredited laboratories worldwide are expected to receive new human growth hormone test kits from WADA in the next few weeks." This is from an article date May 28, 2008.

Regardless, the test for the Olympics is not commercial. It is not mass market, it is only for the Olympics; it is being distributed by a non-profit (WADA), not for profit; and it is not being produced and distributed in mass quantities--in fact, it's being produced and has not been distributed yet.

In no way is the test "commercially available".

Like I said before, PopSci would be well-served if they understood what a word means before they put it in a prop. That one word, "commercially", completely skewed the meaning of the prop, and then they paid it off because some lazy ass didn't want to do their job correctly.

On second thought, I'm going to apologize for using the terms "a$$holery" and "lazy ass" in my prior postings. Frankly, I don't know who might have made the decision to pay this out, and I don't know what sort of conditions might have led to this mistake. Further, the decision was made on a Friday, which is a notoriously bad day for making decisions.

But two facts are clear. First, WADA did indeed determine that the HGH test was "reliable" on time to fulfill the prop. But the second part of the prop, that the test be "commercially available", has not been fulfilled.

Since the wording of the payout statement made it clear that BOTH must be fulfilled, this prop should have paid out short.

Beachfire: You say you're going to quit.
We should form a club.
I'll quit too, if this isn't reversed or provided reasoning for by the admins by next friday.
Y'all never thought you'd see Milkweed say that, didja?

I might consider it as well. I'm pretty frustrated, since that's what took me out of $1 mil - wrongly. Maybe the UPPX should be the "Former PPX Players Unite".

Visit the Unofficial PPX Community

Here's the letter I sent. (Also, I've decided to create a group on UPPX for those considering quitting).

To whom it may (or should) concern:

Many of us on the forums are baffled by the long payout of HGHTEST. We are disconcerted by the direction in which this proposition payed out since the criteria has been met. We ask that you make sure to peruse the pages linked to at the end of this letter, especially noting vulgarian's comments. He clearly explains - with the backup of research - why this should not have payed out long, but short.

Please listen to this request. As a group, we have dealt with the issues confronting PPX with patience, enjoying the game to the best of our ability. But long-time, "first generation" players that have been around since the inception of PPX are now considering departure if this issue is not resolved.

Thank you in advance for the attention you will give to this problem,

scojac

http://www.popsci.com/content/hghtest?page=2

http://www.popsci.com/content/hghtest-payout-long

Visit the Unofficial PPX Community
Visit the Unofficial PPX Community

Great, go away for the weekend and look what happens.... I'm pissed off, but not surprised. As soon as HGHTEST was the only one of the four to not pay out, my first thought was that they were reviewing the payout.

And you know what? I actually saw this happening (check out my two posts back on page 1) but didn't take action as I talked myself out of that position through the terms of 'mass production' and 'industrial scale' (posted only 9 minutes later!!).

FACT: the British agency for sport received some test kits and used them. These tests were endorsed by WADA. But was this commercial?

Our difficulty is our lack of knowledge in the negotiations in which the test-kits were distributed. As I implied, there was likely some form of compensation which the British testing agency provided for the usage of those kits, only problem is we don't know about it.

To take vulgarians definitions:

• 1-2) very vague - can range from trading chicken for wheat to a loan contract for a house.


• 3) "in large quantities for use by industry" - is there an anti-doping or lab testing 'industry'? - 'large quantities' can be relative to each industry


• 4) profit? we have no idea if money was even involved


• 5) sponsored by / supported by advertising - not all industries survive off of advertising or even require it.

Basically, what I'm trying to say (as I did almost a month ago) is that a) tests were endorsed by WADA and b) were made for use by a third party. In my mind, any form of negotiation beyond "take these tests from us for free" could constitute a commercial deal. We're all taking an interpretation of commercial to mean any of 'available to the public', 'available on a large / mass scale', 'public exchange of money' or other variation when in fact commercial can mean none of those. Loosing money based on an interpretation can hurt, but there have been worse things to happen.

Sorry for the late response, I have been out this week.

I certainly was surprised with this finding of Popsci. I think that is was mis-leading, in that the initial conditions of the state of the system might logically be assumed to have been in a state other than that stated by the proposition. One does not normally make a proposition for a outcome that is already is ful-filled.

I suspect that a blood lab can purchase an HGH blood testing kit that is certified by the FDA for commercial use in the USA. I am having a blood panel drawn at a local lab here is So Cal this week. I will ask them if an HGH blood test is commercially available.

My first response was to be upset, but then again this is a game. I have been struggling to move up the ranks. As one approaches the top 25 it gets very difficult to move up one position. In the end it is entertainment. So I got to thinking I was taking this too serious.

It probably should have been halted before it was even listed.

Some people will get upset and quit. That is just the way they act. Interestingly decisions such as this one are routinely present, Things don't always work out like clockwork. Quitting is not best response to such happenings. In real life quitting just takes you out of the process.