A Risk to National Security?

Very interesting piece. I have wondered what had been developed as a F-117 surrogate fighter/Bomber and I was thinking aobut a two seat stealth attack fighter with the carriage capability of 4 2000 lb JDAM type Laser guided bombs and a longer range than the stock F-117. If they built the A-12, it probably was the Boeing Phantom Works site in St Louis with components airlifted to Tonopah by nightly C-17 flights for final assembly.

In designing classified aircraft, you will always be prototyping on a constant basis. That means a limited run production of 4 airframes each contract to allow for attrition in an aggressive test program. To further enhance creativity, you must continue to fund and create black aircraft and see what you have devised before making a decision on further limited production runs aimed at squadron strength like it was done on the F-117 program in the 1980's.

Whether or not they built an operational squadron is up for grabs as the only place it could be based is in the 72 shelters at Tonopah made available when F-117's were relocated to Holloman AFB. You could not base an A-12 on a USN Nimitz class carrier as you would be "outing" the plane from the black world.

It would be nice to see the crations of the black world as it helps validate the worth of the billions of dollars spent on faith in the programs. It takes a lot for someone to tell a Congressman that he or she cannot divulge the reason for the spending request on a classified program and to trust them that they are doing the right thing and not wasting the money.

A succesful black program cannot be judged soley on wasted money as that is often chalked to a learning experience. The only way we can learn is to make the mistakes and spend the money to find the technology you want to have. We cannot penalize our children for taking the risks in academic programs as it is the only way they learn and develop their talents. Same for black budget operators.

You know, all this stuff is interesting, but really, security comes first in my list of priorities, well, it comes ahead of speculation.

If there's no security, there is no country or freedom to defend anymore.

Secret programs are secret for a variety of reasons, some perhaps security related, and others perhaps political. But the fact is that most black ops programs have successfully kept the veil in place until conditions were ready for disclosure. I doubt that the main target of secrecy are curious onlookers and techie types who would love to be in on cutting edge science. Whatever speculation goes on in the press or between individuals, secrecy would have failed miserably if amateurs could so easily discern the truth. Don’t you think that every technologically advanced country in the world wants to know our secrets even more? Does anyone honestly think such countries don’t already know more than we gossipers could possibly guess with our peephole level of data? I think a “don’t look, don’t talk, and don’t think” mentality only fuels paranoia and probably enhances even more speculation. I am personally sick to death of tens of billions of our scarce tax dollars going down rabbit holes for which no one is accountable. That is a political secret worth busting wide open.

Testing Post Capabilities.

Yes, it most definetly is a Risk to National Security! If we, the people, in a Nation is that is to be for the people, dont know, then, how can we be a Nation , being Secure? as a Nation of God, All of us, to be United in Unity through God, we have to know what is going on, and not to allow murder killings overseas, it is a very bad things to dehumanize ourselves by just sitting back and not even thinking or praying about it, pray for the people of the world to Unite, to extend out their hands, and put down their guns, we dont need guns, we need peace, everything comes thereafter! :-) Peace! One Love from God, Creator, Lover of Mankind!

He Forgives, Peace and True Happiness

This is beyond irresposible! This type of reporting borderes on giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Shame on you.
It is pathetic that htis is how you make your living; attempting to uncover secret military information that will only benefit those who wish to do us harm. Try doing something that benefits your country.

Speculation is perfectly normal in a free, open society. The one caveat would be not to do as the New York Times and other publications have done, and reveal actual programs, projects or technologies that can tip off our enemies.

Other than Russians and Chinese, no other nation can hope to catch up with our last generation aircraft, much less the ever-evolving Aurora and other systems that are five generations ahead of what has been revealed so far.

Speculation keeps everyone involved on their toes; our potential future adversaries probably speculate even more.

Don't forget -- some "leaks" are meant to point the bad guys down the wrong path!

I only see it as a threat against national security when the people don’t know what there government is doing with our tax dollars. Sure the "enemy" can also read about our technology & capabilities but that’s better then only a hand full people or special groups knowing & having access to great power. The enemy isnt always on the other side of the ocean. Foreign & domestic enemies are everywhere and sometimes they even exist inside the government (some say they are the only real enemy again humanity). I want to know what my government, that represents me and my country so that they act accordingly and in the peoples best interests. Don’t forget, through-out human history of conflict, farmers with pitch forks with a better cause have always prevailed over any enemy dispite its advanced technologies... Good will always prevail over evil... I dont believe in a "God" but I do believe in good & evil. Information is free and secrets are shadows of deceit and pathways to evil acts. If you want peace, prepare for war but know what all sides are capable of. If our enemy has a weapon that can destroy us better then we can prevent them or be forced to destroy them, I want to know about it. Besides, there are no winners in war... there is no such thing as an enemy because we are all human beings. Its secrets and this mentality that one human is better then the other that’s preventing our species from advancing faster and improving our chances of survival... survival not just from "enemies" but from natural occurrences that have no emotions, they just annihilate. Asteroids, hurricanes, and the after effects of a burrito.

The greatest risk according to Dwight Esinhower is the power and secrecy industrial/military complex.
May I remind everyone that Boeing has antigravity technology that they have published.
Now how does a aircraft engineering devise anitgravity???
I for one have no doubt that these vehicles that are presented in this article are no where near the actual capabilities of their true arsenal.
I am firmly convinced that alien technology is in the hands of AREA 51 and is backengineered into the industrial complex as rightful patents.
May I suggest the Disclosure Project of Dr. Green.

If Boeing is releasing antigravity details to the public now, then they were doing antigravity in AREA 51 quite a long time ago.

Like Esinhower stated the biggest threat to the Constitution is the industrial/military complex.

911 and national security are a deteriation of personal freedom and civil rights and liberties.

The greatest risk according to Dwight Esinhower is the power and secrecy of the industrial/military complex.
May I remind everyone that Boeing has antigravity technology that they have published.
Now how does a aircraft engineering devise anitgravity?
I for one have no doubt that these vehicles that are presented in this article are no where near the actual capabilities of their true arsenal.
I am firmly convinced that alien technology is in the hands of AREA 51 and is back engineered into the industrial complex as rightful patents.
May I suggest a full reading of the Disclosure Project of Dr. Green.

If Boeing is releasing antigravity details to the public now, then they were doing antigravity in AREA 51 quite a long time ago.

Like Esinhower stated the biggest threat to the Constitution is the industrial/military complex.

Unfortunately 911 and national security have caused a deteriation of personal freedom and civil rights and liberties.

This story in no way damages National Security. This is the "boring" stuff.

If we strip away speculation on the future, we will not have any future. The consequences for scare tactics of giving up freedom for safety was well considered by Benjamin Franklin.

I think America is a risk a INTERNATIONAL security and peace (not that it exists much at all anymore). and that america makes most of its threats (no they arent attacking you becuase they are jealous of you "freedom" and "justice")

A culture of secrecy can be a greater risk to a republic than openness, as totalitarian states show. The American public knew far more about the Soviet bloc than any Soviet citizen, and yet the Soviet could be jailed for trivial things in the name of "state security". Hypersonic planes and far more advanced things have been known for years by people the mainstream publications laughed at, but anyone interested in spying on them wasn't getting it from magazines anyway. The far greater threat is the one from within--how effectively a public can be manipulated through the use of fear (the real terrorism) in the disguise of security. Technology is a tool, but it is only part of a part of a part of security. If so called hostile interests are ahead of the traditional game, the public, the government's boss and not its subjects, should be too.

Well said chris, the US government is currently engaged in the largest and most successful propaganda campaign ever. Its in its interest to keep the American public scared (notice how terror alert levels will never go to zero) because that way it can justify pretty much anything by inserting the buzz words "evil, terrorism, wmd's" etc etc. It appears that the American public is waking up to this a bit though. And credible people are speaking out about nearly every step on the way. EG: Weapons inspectors in Iraq resigning and saying it was quite obvious there were no wmd's; US military lawyers speaking out against the trail system in Guantanomo bay, claiming its unfair and is only designed to get convictions.

It pains me that America insists on a "war" against terror, when some simple foreign policy changes could eliminate MOST of the aggression towards America. What the American public must realise and accept is that thier standard of living is much much higher (as an average) than that of the third world, and that is a DIRECT result of the third world being disgustingly empoverished. Essentialy the American public may aswell be using them as slave labour, although its wrapped up and well concealed with tricky economics and sanctions it is essentially whats happening.

Think about it like this: People in the third world are dying of starvation in thier millions, while it is predicted that Americas next major health problem will be OBESITY, how do you think that would make them feel. Perhaps if things like this were to change there would not be so much aggression towards the US, dont buy the "jealous of our freedoms etc etc" they are people too, they just want a fair go.

Hmmm...

Wasn't this the same publication that presented an article about how the author "drove right to the heart of Area 51 and found it deserted"?

There will always be black projects, and they ARE essential. I personally don't want "enemies" knowing about what our capabilities will be in 5, 10 or 20 years time!

IF YOU THINK "SPECULATION" OF SECRET MILITARY PROJECTS IS A NATIONAL SECURITY RISK, THEN YOU ARE FOOLING YOURSELF. OTHER COUNTRIES ARE DOING THIS SAME THING RIGHT NOW. THEY HAVE BETTER PEOPLE SPECULATING ON HINGS LIKE THIS AS WE SPEAK. THEY HAVE SPIES DIGGING THROUGH PAPERWORK AND COMPUTER FILES TRYING TO HACK INTO GOVERNMENT COMPUTERS. UFO-CONSPIRACY THEORISTS ARE DOING THE SAME THING EVERY DAY AND EVERYBODY LOOKS AT THEM AS IF THEY ARE IDIOTS. YOU MIGHT AS WELL INCLUDE THE POPULAR SCI-FI CHANNELS AND SHOWS THAT DEAL WITH FUTURISTIC IDEAS AS BEING A NATIONAL SECURITY RISK AS WELL.

I'm far more concerned about the stories run by local newscasts that show people sneaking contraband through airport security than a bunch of conjecture about futuristic development.

Our most dangerous enemies aren't going to be stealing plans for vertical takeoff supersonic jets. They're smuggling explosives disguised as mouthwash on to commercial plans.

Those who would harm the United States include people with aerospace engineering degrees and Internet connections. They have already figured this stuff out and to assume otherwise is stupid. Go and look at pre-war caricatures of short-sighted, weedy Japanese fighter pilots and think about Pearl Harbour.
And by the way - it wasn't us that reported that Area 51 was closed!

Bill Sweetman
Contributing Editor
Popular Science

Does anyone wonder if the "Flying Triangles" that were seen over Phoenix, AZ were any part of this?

To me the question of What are the flying triangles? is the most fascinating question that I would love to know the answer to. Does anyone know? What are some good websites about the triangles?

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_triangles for a start. But even potentially hostile states already know more than mainstream western scientists because they're more open to the technology of the unconventional; saucer craft, which I have seen, and paranormal phenomena included. I believe in security, but I still look suspiciously at Clinton and Bush's gross technology laxities and wonder. I also worry more about whether we are mentally advanced enough both to skilfully negotiate the political realm in coming years and to preserve the country as an intact real democracy worth employing technology to defend. And one PS for paradox, Bill: you're very right about not underestimating potential adversaries, but every credible witness account, of which there are many, and a truckload of documentary evidence indicate that FDR's foreknowledge of and interest in Pearl Harbor is a lot more than dismissable conspiracy theory.

"Democracy"

I share the feeling that articles such as this one are nothing more than entertainment for the curious minds of those interested in aerospace development. I do not think that we as Americans are priviledged with any additional information not already to anyone we might consider a theat to this country. Its nothing but harmless speculation. A far cry from Heraldo drawing lines in the sand.

Does anyone think that the pros of advanced espionage nations like Israel, China, etc. are not way ahead of any speculation on your part. You guys are amateur in comparison.

Interesting article but what do all those people in the long line of cars do all day in the parking lot since the jets have already pulled away?

Speculative articles of this type are in no way detrimental to national security. If aviation journalists and enthusiasts can think of these possibilities, so can the people who's job it is to spy on us and try to counter our technology...and they probably already have. We only know of what we are allowed to see, so our speculation doesn't harm anybody. A couple of inaccuracies in the article though. The F-117 was first used in combat in Panama in 1989, and Northrop's Tacit Blue was a technology demonstrator (not designed for any specific purpose).

1) The Special-Ops Infiltrator is very similar to a design by Robert Bartini (Russian of italian descent) how worked on WIGs & ekranoplans for his work see book: Russia's Ekranoplans isbn: 1-85780-146-6. Shows other example's of WIG with ducted lift fans. The weakness with in-wing fans is that their are a dead weight for 95% of the flight. Better to use vectored
thrust duct fans where can blow air downwards for lift and rearwards for flight

2)The Boeing design for a combined heium balloon & wing shape certainly isn't new - do websearch on Skycat. Combines Helium balloon, with lifting body shape and hovercraft landing gear.

3) The hypersonic Aurora has been talked about for years. BAe & a Japanese company have recently test small Scramjet engine fixed in the 'small' scale aircraft by mounting on a test rocket & launching it (in Australia I think).

I am amazed that PopSci and its readers are still being hoodwinked by the great 'secret airplane' conspiracy. WAKE UP. The fantasy aircraft of Area 51 are a cover to hide the real truth – a truth that is the greatest threat to national security of all.

Bill Sweetman (who by his own account is fluent in Chinese, Venusian and Klingon) is at the heart of this cover up by presenting a 'rational' explanation for what is clearly alien technology at large on this planet. The glimpses of 'secret aircraft' are - in fact - alien vehicles being tested by extraterrestrials and hu-mans, with sinister implications for us all.

Has anyone asked why Bill Sweetman and the Excelsior Overlord B'ong-oo have never been seen in the same room together? Well??

These are the questions you should be asking.

If a reporter can uncover it, its not a secret.

What I find really stupid is the whole "national security"BS-just who are these wonder weapons to be used against? is there a polit leader on the planet that doesn't know ae allready have the power to turn ANY country into unliveable slag?you want to see real tech advances? take the "secret" classification away,release all the information we citizens have paid for,and stand back!

Wow the only bit of this article that was rehashed from the conspiracy theory 90's was the tidbit about Polecat. I canceled Popular Mechanics for wastes of space like this story.

^^^ wasn't rehashed ^^^

One of the puzzles concerning the black world is why air-breathers like Aurora continue to be developed if "electrogravitic" vehicles exist. Perhaps Aurora is ready for marketing? Sure would be a gas-guzzler!!!

Will the allies buy it (and in enough quantity to reverse the trade imbalance)!!! Wait, our main imbalance is with China. I get it. This is old stuff we can sell them.

Damn it's hard to figure out your policies. They seem to be post-rational. Perhaps the sonic boom from these things are a psywar device to elict dread in the toiling slaves below? At least sufficient to encourage them to continue to remit revenues!!! Of course, if they don't have JOBS that PAY then they wouldn't be able to do that but I guess that is a pedestrian concern to your highnesses.

Alien recovered technology is doubtless at the heart of a lot of the stuff currently under test - we almost certainly don;t know how to reproduce it any more than a Kalahari Bushman could reverse engineer a Sony HandyCam.
The reason it is - and must be - secret is because the vast majority of people are simply happy in their ignorance. Truth be told, most people don;t want to know and don't care.
All they want, in real terms, is fortomorrow to be much the same as Today was:
A roof overtheir heads, warmth, food to eat & somebody to care if they are allright or not.

Any alien civilization could walk in any Sunday Afternoon they cared to. If they can get here, then they are years, if not centuries ahead of us anyway. And exactly what could we do to stop them - assuming we should even try. Ifthey were not basically altruistic, then they would already have assumed the freehold anyway. What they almost certainly are is curious about who weare - a seriously aggressive, socially immature species who are on the edge of being able to take our first stumbling steps into the galaxy. Hell, we monitor places like Iran, and rightly so - yet we don't help them as this would be like handing our muggers a Magnum 45.

These things must remain hidden.

Educated speculation is okay with me.

Speculation is perfectly harmless. The enemy obviously does it aswell. If these "black world" programs can not hide their projects from, us, the public; then there is no way that they can keep their "business" secretive. It's laughable if you actually think the US's enemies read PopSci for Recon and Intel.

Speculation is fantastic for thoese involved in black ops if u think abt it thats a great benifit for thoese involved in black projects.
my reason for this is as follows.
in the event a hostile speculates wrongly,funds, time and talent are wasted in the development of counter stratagies on non-exisiting threats. aint that a bonus?
and i wont say its a national threat simply because as said above the US enemys wont just trust the word of an independent. but rather take the words of there own specialist.

I am a person who is not an American citizen. I am Turkish by origin, but live in Australia and am Muslim in my beliefs.

All of what was written today could all be correct indeed and the citizens of the USA do have a right to know where their tax-money is going and exactly what the US is doing.

However, the technology that the USA is keeping secret is crucial to the prevention of development of tactics and technology that could possibly counter the technology produced by your government.

Ultimately, I totally agree with what Rog says about the American quality of life compared to third world countries. In addition, Neil Wilkes is also correct. Most of the population really don't care about National Security policies as much as they do about everyday quality of life and family.

One way or another, it is inevitable that America will continue to develop its war-machine both technologically and numerically.

In terms of the terrorist threats to America, there is none. 9/11 was allowed to happen. During that day, all flights in the country were grounded except the plane carrying the members of the Bin-Laden family. Mr. Bush, could you explain this? And as DEAN said, the technology revealed in this article is probably years old. According to the author Dan Brown, American military technology is at least 12 years ahead of all civilian and military technology anywhere else in the world, including the civilian technologies of the United States.

Of course, this COULD all be a disinformation campaign. Remember the brou-ha-ha about the all curves F-19 Stealth fighter ? The one that never existed outside of some plastic model kits and a nifty computer game ???

Who knows. . .

HONESTLY, I WONDER HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD REALLY CARE ABOUT THE US'S SECURITY. AMERICA HAS EARNED THE DISTRUST AND DISDAIN OF MOST PEOPLES EVERYWHERE. UNTIL THE PRESENT ADMINISTRATION IS HISTORY AND FOREIGN POLICY BECOMES MORE GLOBALLY INTELLIGENT, WE WILL REMAIN A NATION LED BY A "MORON"

Classified information is there for a reason, it prevents the ID 10 T factor from compromising something that can be used against our country.. Need to know is a valid point, curiosity is not a need to know, just a brag point or nosey parker item... Close the door on folks who would give away the farm... cheers to all who serve... Dennis Stager,,, USN retired.

I'm so tired of people in the know, slipping tidbits of secret stuff for all to know. What is going on at area 51? None of your damned business!

Bill Sweetman's articles are always great fun. This type of informed speculation reminds me of NFL draft previews which, more often than not, diverge wildly from eventual reality. Is Sweetman correct? I hope so. Does his opinion compromise national security? No. Even if the technology he describes does exist, our adversaries have no hope of countering or duplicating it. So where's the harm?

Do what you do. We live in a free world and free is how it will remain. Peace and Love.

I don't think it is. unless you are a stupid bush republican. I want to know what the hell the government is spending my $905.45 in taxes they take every month...i work very hard for my money. this should be reason enough to know everyting they do.

You have an error that has crept in. The successor to the A-12 is the SR-71. The A-12 was originally designed as an escort fighter for the B-70. When the B-70 was cancelled the A-12 had its strakes lengthened noseward and cameras installed in the lengthened section. It is likely the original weapons bays were retained. The designation SR-71 came about when President Johnson misspoke and called the RS-71 the SR-71. Rather than contradict the President and also probably to hide capabilities, the Air Force changed its designation from Reconnaisance Strike to Strategic Reconnaisance. Also it is likely when the SR-71 was retired in 1991 it was because its replacement (Aurora or something similar) became operational. The fact that the SR-71 was brought out of retirement makes it likely that its replacement encountered problems and was grounded. I've often wondered if the 71 in SR-71 revealed either its first flight or it operational date.

In my reasonably education opinion. I believe that for the most part americas security as well as the security of all developed nations lies in make technology as advanced and complicated as possible and letting the world masses know it is out there. Terrorists are for the most part an ignorant and uneducated lot. They are really only able to attack when the modern nations of the world develope simplified destructive technologies. Automatic firearms, and rocket propelled grenades have point and click interfaces that dont require any kind of a manual. Children can and have used them.

The 9/11 terrorists had no idea how to fly those planes before they learn to fly at commercal aircraft schools in the US.

The chemical explosive that was reported in the last newsworthy terrorist fiasco would not have worked. Triacetone triperoxide was the peroxide based explosive that they planned to use. It was reported by numerous chemists and chemical engineers that they could not have produced that binary compound with the materials that they had. They apparently needed a strong cooling source like dry ice or potentially liquid nitrogen depending on the volume of the desired end product. Not things available on a plane. Frozen CO2(dry ice) is specificly not allowed on aircraft. These terrorist are not educated people.

But how stupid does someone have to be to blow them selves up intentionally?

I would love for every terrorist to speculate wildly about futuristic technology that may or maynot exist. If enough "wild technology" information is leaked maybe they will think twice about killing innocent people.

Developed nations dont have murderous scientists and engineers but 3rd world countries absolutely have illiterate warlords commiting genocide.

Any sufficently advanced technology is occasionally indestinguishable from magic to the uneducated observer.

Speculation is just that - speculation. It is more likely to be wrong than right. I think the speculation tells the military what to say or not say to present the view they want seen.

There is also something gained from speculation.
I,m sure the right hints are dropped into press ears.The Russian were destroyed by speculation and they mass produced millions of weapons to combat the speculation that maybe the West really did have more and more advanced weapons so the Russians just built more just in case.The result was bankruptcy.The US designed the B70 that never flew operationally only as a prototype,the Ussr replied with a very fast but usless Mig 25.They simply built hundreds of them.They were afraid of the speculation and roumours of Reagans Starwars project.That caused them to fear and spend more on creating "better" missile subs so they could be launched closer to to the west and make vectoring weapons dificult for defence systems.The star wars project is still not yet acceptable.The short of it speculation can drive fear into your enemy because He too knowns its speculation but part of him is not sure if it is only speculation.He may just hesitate to attack if he is convinced he may fail and lose.

All this speculation on "Black Projects" is just a base argument that M.A.D. (mutal assured destruction) is still the prevailing theme in the worlds security for the major players for world domination. If the speculation is that we have superior weapons that can deliver nuclear payloads without being shot down or destroyed, then our so called enimes will not attack us based on the thought that they cannot defend against (either real or not real) high tech secret weapons. Problem, This theroy doesn't work against an enemy extremest, ignorant or educated that believes he has no choice but to destroy populations using biological methods. Do we have any secret weapons to combat the spread of biological or chemical attacks prepitrated by people on our own soil?

Well Peter knows Beter

http://www.peterdavidbeter.com

Unlimited, unquestioned security is much more dangerous than any speculation. Speculation is going to occur in any case, both on our and the enemy side. If only open information (which is also available to our enemies), then no harm is done.

What if the sonic booms were not American aircarft flying overhead but some other nations spyplanes? Just a thought.

I don't think this is a threat to my security at all. The only thing that is a threat to my security is how many billions of dollars is being wasted on all this junk to kill people. This money could be better utilized to improve our country's schools, developing oil independent transportation, cleaning up the environment, fixing the infrastructure, instituting national health care etc. All this money spent on these toys at Area 51 just lines the pockets of big corporations and their stockholders! Peace to all!

Just a quick question. Has anyone wondered why the F-117 was extremely secretive, wheras the next generation stealth and fast attack fighter the F-22, was put in the public for over a decade? Makes me wonder if they were using the F-22 as a cloak for a more highly advanced peice of equipment. I'm speculating that the government has revealed to the public the F-22 only to make the public not worry about what else they are creating. Interesting huh?

If i were a stockholder, i would put alot of money into lockheed, garmin, and boeing. Because this advancement of aircraft technology and military strength is only going to increase.

There is no national security at risk. Any modern country that wants to know what and how have their spy’s in place. The only people that are kept in the dark are the ones paying for these huge over priced projects. The reason these projects are top secret is to keep the American people from objecting to unqualified tax money being spent. I wonder if anyone has ever done the math to find out the total money spent on projects just like these that turned out to be unusable or unnecessary. I’m sure that money would feed and house a lot of people that don’t get a chance to voice their opinion on the spending of the previously mentioned tax money.
Mike

I think it is good,in a way,for some of these things to leak out(not the entire project,blueprints and all) but a few details on what is being done and maybe a sketch or two. That way our enemies will know that we have some awesome crap we can throw at them incase they want to start something.

No I do not think it is a risk of national security because when it comes down to it, come on, do you really believe area 51 has got all this crazy top secret material. Im in the navy and got orders to Point Mugu CA didnt even know that base existed, or how about Kingsbay GA a very strict nuclear sub base did you know about that one. Many bases are so out of the way the majority of people dont know of them unlike Norfolk Naval Station, Or Hickam Airforce base if the US goverment wanted to really keep something under lock and key wouldnt it be a great idea to keep the publics eye on area 51 then use other base as such the ones Ive mentioned for the real hot stuff. Just a thought because anybody can get satellite images of area 51 anytime they wanted just google it...

i think that the stuff they do is none of our business even though id like to know. but really who cares

i think that the stuff they do is none of our business even though id like to know. but really who cares

The only thing that is a thread to any nation is the lack of education of its citizens and not a lack of secret offensive weapons.

Thank you all for this fascinating article and blog: it is highly enjoyable. I've never laughed so much ( Nifty video-game, reverse engineering a sony handy-cam, and altruistic aliens), boy, you educated people sure made me laugh..

but i think this is good: Americans and people worldwide are finally questionning the government blackbox projects and questionning the validity of spending more than 9billion in secret projects -totalling several trillions of dollars annually.

why not spend all that money on solar pannelled wells that will help kids go to school instead of walking 5hours for water for their crops?

Up with democracy and freedom of speech!

America your waking up! and that's good!!! :)

There is no Area-51.....its all in your heads! There is no such thing as U.F.O.'s! The Government doesn't have secrets, we are all one with the universe.
By the way, we are a Republic, not a democracy...look it up people and go vote. as for me, I'll be Area 9 working on the new.....

There is no risk in speculating about aircraft being tested at Area 51 because I'm almost positive that you're wrong, regardless of patent filings, etc. When was the last time an artist's renditions of top-secret airplanes was right???

All this stuff is out there. Don't let your guard down and be so quick to try and disprove what may lie behind a curtain of shadows. Or one night as you sleep soundly in bed you will be whisked away to a distant planet. Forced to be an unwilling sex slave to Adolf Hitler's brother, Hans, an eternal being with an unquenchable thirst for a married mans anus. Be on your guard!

I think publishing this information is a security risk. Why don't we just take out a full page add in every newspaper in the world...same difference.

Speculating on what the U.S. arsenal for defence has on its drawing board serves a purpose that is not counter to national securety if one considers that potential enemies will have to expend money and resources trying to develop counter-measures. What better way to exhaust the finances of a potential adversary than to have them waste time and money trying to develop defensive measures against non-existent U.S. weapons?

Really it is proper to think of these configurations of metal and glass and composite materials as strictly civilian projects, being developed by the wrong people,they are built to haul a man and his cargo to serve a purpose, and they are only good for military projects depending on the techology and strategy of our adversaries.

First we try to negotiate with our adversaries, and then it is better to wait till we know what weapons and strategies,and maps, and limits they have, then we can make a decision to force them to stop shooting at us, economically.

Really , it would be prety cool zipping along at mach 6, listening to a good stereo, but not for a fight. If we have an enemy that needs us to go mach 6 and all we have is one jet, we are screwed.

If we have an adversary that needs us to have this type of technology the best bet is to just tell us, and we will simply go to their house and kick their ass.

Otherwise they can keep the jets secret or not, and really nobody cares, in the end we will be the ones to kick the bad guys ass anyway.

These planes are basically a nice stereo system with wings.

That is not much. That will not be respected until after they are turned into civilian aircraft and they prove to us that they are valuable in a peaceful society.

Military aircraft are public aircraft. They are paid for by the US taxpayer. It would appear that keeping information from the US public is ludicrous. Many foreign intelligence agencies already have information about many of our secret? programs. Why shouldn't we who have to pay for these toys, be allowed to comment and speculate about our own purchases.

Personally, I don't want to know what the government is developing under black programs. It actually gives me comfort in the fact that if I, an American citizen, don't know what my government is developing are enemies don't have a prayer.

That being said, I don't view this particular article as a threat to national security. The article never specifically mentions any type of design specification that could be used to exploit any kind of weakness in the speculated designs. Besides, PopSci has published articles that detail design specs for programs that are DEFINITELY under development, but none of those details are able to be exploited by the enemy either.

The only way that such an article could become a liability is if you published detailed design specs and blueprints and funded potential enemies to build their version of the design.

A FEW YEARS AGO A TV NEWS PROGRAM DID AN ARTICLE ON A PROJECT TO REPLACE A RESERVOIR TOWER (LARGE) IN THE MIDWEST WITH AN UNDERGROUND TANK, A LARGE/EXPENSIVE BIT OF WORK. THE ODD THING WAS THAT THE PROJECT TURNED OUT TO BE FICTIONAL--IT WAS NEVER ACTUALLY DONE AT ALL! BUT A COMPLEX SET OF DOCUMENTS EXISTED THAT INCLUDED PAYMENTS TO IMAGINARY TRUCK DRIVERS, AND EVERYTHING TO MAKE THE PROJECT APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN GENUINE-- IT WS, APARENTLY VERY WELL EXECUTED BY PERSONS WHO KNEW HOW SUCH DOCUMENTATION WAS DONE, AND DONE WELL. MAYBEE IT WAS SOMEONE IN THE STATE FAMILIAR WITH THE ROUTINES---BUT I CANT HELP BUT WONDER IF SUCH DIVERSION OF FUNDS MIGHT ALSO BE A USEFUL SOURCE OF BLACK FUNDING FOR ANY SPOOK-ISH NEEDS? JUST A LITTLE PARANOIAC SPECULATION??
RALPH

IF WE INVENT A REALLY WAR WINNING AIRCRAFT-WE'LL PROBABLY BUILD IT. BUT LETS REMEMBER WHAT WE DID IN THE PAST, WHEN CONFRONTED WITH THIS SITUATION! WE BUILT THE B-49 FLYING WING--THE EARLY, PROP DROVEN MODELS HAD A RANGE OF ABOUT 10,000 MILES,(MOSCOW TO NY FOR INSTANCE)AND, WE DISCOVERED, WAS SO STEALTHY WE COULDNT SPOT IT ON RADAR EVEN IF IT FILED A FLIGHT PLAN!A TRULY SCAREY MACHINE. THEN WE REMEMBERED THE COMMIES COPYING THE B-29 WHEN WE PARKED A COUPLE OF THEM IN RUSSIA IN WW2-THE B-29 COST US MORE TO DEVELOP THEN THE ATOMIC BOMB! THE IDEA OF RUSSIAN BUILT B-49S SCARED US BADLY!! SO WE HACKED THEM TO BITS IN FRONT OF THE FACTORY, SO THE REDS COULDNT MISS THE POINT--- THAT THEY SUCKED!!IT WASNT STABILITY PROBLEMS, OR DIFFICULTY WITH CONSOLIDATED THAT KILLED EM--IT WAS OUR EXTRAPOLATION OF THEIR IMPLICATIONS THAT DID IT!
TOO BAD THE COSMOLOGER THAT FIGURED THAT OUT WASNT AROUND TO THINK ABOUT THR RUCKSACK-NUKES THAT TURNED WHEELBARROWS AND LAMBRETTAS INTO NUCLEAR DELIVERY SYSTEMS!!! TOO BAD. RALPH

Anyhow, delivery systems are old-hat! we put nukes (irbms)into turkey---reds put irbms into cuba--paper/sisors/stone--- we both pulled em out--phew!!! but--whats the next logical tactic, that offers even shorter delivery times?? right!!! the in-situ device!!! dropped unobtrusively in enemy harbours, near old wrecks to disguise magnetic signatures, waiting for pre-programmed cues to initiate...did we do it? did they? the world is watching! lets check our harbours. ralph

TO DIGRESS, SLIGHTLY: DO YOU THINK WE COULD CHEER UP THE N. KOREANS IF WE EXPLAINED THAT OUR 12,000 WARHEADS AREN'T GOING TO BE USED ON THEM- EVEN IF THEY DO BUILD ONE THEMSELVES.--IT MIGHT HELP THEM RELAX A BIT, MAKE EM A BIT LESS STROPPY.

What, you think anyone believes you know what you are talking about here. The Press is usually so far off base in these areas it's laughable.

B.O.: PLEASE PRESENT YOUR COSMOS! TO BE MERELY OPINIONATED REQUIRES LITTLE MIND OR THOUGHT.
RALPH

This article is intriguing but basically just speculation. Foreign governments (even our "allies") spend quite a bit of time trying to figure out what the U.S. can or can not do. Simply knowing our capabilities does not mean that there is an effective countermeasure. Our most direct threat is from a very low tech terrorist culture that is not affected at all by our super weapons! I think black projects exist in part because at times they produce expensive failures that the public would not justify. 50 years from now someone will be paying money to see "Aurora" in a museum. They will be told it was "ahead of its time" when all that really means is technology filters slowly out of the military. I don't work at Area 51. Really.

-Scramjetter

DOES "STEALTH TECHNOLOGY" REALLY WORK? IT DEPENDS ON OUR VEHICLES REFLECTING RADAR PULSES IN DIRECTIONS OTHER THEN TOWARD THE TRANSMITTER, (TO OVERSIMPLIFY). THIS TACTIC DEPENDS ON THE ENEMY USING MONOSTATIC RADAR SYSTEMS--LIKE OURS. BUT, I'VE HEARD THAT THE RUSSIANS USED BI-STATIC RADAR SYSTEMS--THAT COULD, THEORETICALY CATCH THE SIGNALS REFLECTED AT ODD ANGLES BY-SAY-A B2 BOMBER. IF SO, PERHAPS WE ARE ONLY STEALTHY WHILE IN A MONOSTATIC RADAR ENVIRONMENT--AND LOOSE OUR STEALTH WHEN WE ENTER SPACE SURVEYED BY MULTISTATIC RADAR! SO-WHILE WE COULDN'T SPOT OUR STEALTH AIRCRAFT ON OUR RADAR--OVER RUSSIA, IT MIGHT NOT HAVE WORKED. HAS ANYBODY ONE ELSE HEARD THIS CONCEPT? HOW ABOUT TRACKING SYSTEMS THAT CAN DIFERENTIATE BETWEEN A STARFIELD AND A BLACK OBJECT OBSCUREING IT? IS STEALTH REALLY REAL?? RALPH PS-A CESNA-172 LANDED IN RED SQUARE, UNDETECTED-FLOWN BY MATEUS RUST, I BELIEVE. THAT AND CHERNOBLE COST THE REDS SO MUCH FACE THE GOVERNMENT FOLDED!!!LETS PUT A GRAIN OF SALT ON THE OVERPRICED CRAP OUR LEADERS, APARENTLY, BELIEVE IN, AND PUT OUR MONEY WHERE OUR NEEDS ARE--HEALTH, EDUCATION, NEGLECTED INFRASTRUCTURE,---
AND STOP BEING MANIPULATED BY PARANOIAC THEMES. RS

I don't think the Nations security has anything to worry about, because if we know about this so-called high-tech aircrafts, you can be sure there are more other highly advanced aircraft in which we have never, and probably never will, see.

Also, as long as every little detail of the aircrafts are not leaked out to the public, I doubt anyone will be able to remodel a top-secret aircraft simply by looks alone, or rumors of how the aircraft maneuvers or the engine(s) it has in it.

One, speculation is not the revelation of what is, nor can you devise a counter measure on something you know nothing of. Paranoia, it will be our undoing.
Two. If you are prohibited from speculation, you are being sensored, or worse, denied your basic constitutional right to free speech. But in a climate where fear has taken root, it may be our future.

What people tend to forget is that knowing the existence of projects is not the same as having the ability to reproduce the results. The United States went to the Moon in the 60's, and even now, a fair number of nations are STILL trying to duplicate our efforts.

Engineering is complex enough that a 5 line description and "artist visualization" on popsci means nothing.

If two heads are better than one, then a million heads are better yet. Its naive to think the Pentagon geeks have thought of everything, and "in the clear" discussion of possibilities gives our enemies tons of disinformation to chew on, or leads for tech-spies to waste time eliminating. I say open speculation is a good thing.

I don't see any potential security risk in aircraft experts making educated guesses. Any foreign power which is concerned about a conflict with the US will have a staff of similar experts being paid to do the same thing. They will have a budget and access to higher quality intelligence sources. In the end, they will know better than you what the US is up to. Anything you can guess, they have already guessed or know. If they consider it a real threat (like the XB-70 in the 60's) they are already working on countermeasures which may or may not ever be needed. The Mig 25 was built to chase down and kill a top secret, Mach 3 bomber that the US never put into production.

I would not have expected the Government to just give up the SR-71 Blackbird without haveing something to replace it..The reason America is still partialy free is because we have , to an extent , stayed just ahead of our enimies in survailance and technology . Our problem now lies within as personal freedoms and morality are exchanged for profit .

Spaculating on the posible exisance of secret projects of the U.S.A. can hardly be classified as a hazard to national security. I should even say rather the contrary: The keepers of the real secret projects can see how succesful they really are in keeping their secrets. These speculations of PopSci and others show what has come out. And like was said in other comments-The describing of these projects like is done here does not automatically imply that they also can be countered, equalled or reproduced by others. That said- Bringing out secret projects in a manner like this can also be beneficiary to the keepers of the secrets in that these revelations bring out comments from others who do have valuable knowledge. Point in case on stealth technology- Some rader manufacturer from the Netherlands already had a radar system that could clearly see the F117, B2 and other comparable craft from day one of their flying days. These radar systems are functioning on board of the Dutch LCF-class warships. This was quietly communicated to the US-defence in the 1980's when there came speculation in papers like Popsci about invisible airplanes. Aside from that- The US were not the only ones to develope stealth technology in that era- German and French companies and universities were just as far as the US. The only reason no real stealth-craft came out of those countries is because the US were the only one who deemed it important enough to spend enough cash on such projects for realtime aircraft, while the Europeans put all their money in the Eurofighter, Rafale, Saab Viggen and some unmanned initiatives, partly because of the Dutch radar system, it was understood that this stealth technology has only limitied use.

A threat to national security? Has anyone ever looked back on old issues of this magazine? If any of the speculation from the past fifty years were true we'd all be living on mars with robot servants getting our power from undersea turbines. Popular Science is very entertaining and sometimes half true, but it's still two shades away from the National Enquirer.

Depends on who does the speculating. There would be vast differences between my speculation, one from your esteemed staff, and...say...one from a disgruntled ex-employee of Area 51 who might be really into waterboarding.

Speculation from the first two parties is both entertaining to the general readership and confusing to the 'enemy'. Speculation from the third will be chalked up to a bad crack habit, just before he/she dissapppears, so...not an issue.

Just remember that America is not he only country to develop Highly advanced Black Projects, and are not the be all and end all. Russia can no longer sustain the military budget to maintain such advancement, as for China, they lack the forward thinking. But what the U.K.? Throughout history they have been at the forefront of aviation advancement, whether it,s the invention of radar of the Worlds first Viable VTOL. Even now, the F35 uses British made technology, such as Rolls Royce's Lift fan. As for Aurora, then a scram jet must be used, as a true ramjet can achieve much higher speeds and so the problem of initial ignition must of been solved without something silly as a seperate engine being involved.

Relax people, if you think that Popular Science can factually predict and post classified programs on the net you are insulting the calibre of many people.

Secondly one has to wonder now that the US is going to upgrade its weaponary which countries will it sell its stockpile to, which countries will be fighting wars with this weaponary.

War is a nasty business, no need to sugar coat it.

Last but not the least do not forget that you and I are able to post these messages because we experienced freedom and democracy or felt their essence.

In a sense, speculation on black projects is a national security risk, in that it may make it easier for our enemies to come up with ideas or know where to look. Also, it could remind them of past forgotten ideas or give them insight into something they had not fully considered before for whatever reason.

However, there is also great merit in speculation. For example, it inspires and encourages college students like myself to study harder and what to work on such projects in order to further solidify the miltary power of the United States and our role as the most technologically advanced nation in the world.

As a USAF military veteran, I could always spout on about national security, Black Ops, Secrecy and the like. I myself grew up just fascinated by aircraft and the possibilities of what we can create, AND the what our inventions can be used for.
A lot of movies about inventors creating something for the benefit of mankind that eventually were snatched up by the military DO hold some merit, in that we do not, for the most part, want our inventions built for the purpose of war or doing others harm, or for the purpose of destruction.
I DO believe in the security of our nation, helping other countries maintain their security, and cost effectiveness, the proper use of our tax dollars, knowing what it is that our government is spending OUR money on, other than the $763.45 8 ounce claw hammer and the $5000,00 aircraft toilet seat. and even the money spent on replacement parts and equipment that could be saved just by going to the local Radio shack or home depot, saving use millions, if not billions of tax dollars.
Please respect the fact that I am not necessarily jumping on the side of the budget bandwagon or even on our governments side.
Do I believe in full disclosure?? to some degree,....yes, but then, I AM a patriot, a veteran and DO believe that we need the secrecy of what we are building and/or creating with the purpose of protecting our nation and being able to bring the fight to those that would try to do us harm.
I myself would LOVE to see what we have built, or are building at "area 51" or some other skunkworks type facility. Personnally, I think it would be neat to see what a new aircraft looked like and what it could do.
I DO hope, that one day soon, things will go the way that it is written in the Bible, that one day, "We will turn our swords into plowshares." and we will live in peace.
So,... If you wish to go on speculating about what happens in the Black-ops world, the Skunkworks, Area 51, and are happy about when, or if, your guesses end up yielding any merit in the long run (even if the artists conception ends up being off by a country mile) then I say, carry on.
But if you get caught getting too close, don't say I didn't tell you so.
Be careful and keep at least SOME of our imaginations alive with the possibilities of what are, and what could be. I just hope that if they come up with Warp drive and the Voyager type vehicle of Star Trek fame, they BEST NOT keep that one from us.

Just stop this. Either your trying to get ratings or you're just irresponsible. Either way don't do this to us. Our military needs to be stealth and secret. It's people like you and others like you that give the enemy a heads up on our technology. It's bad enough we have to deal with people giving away secrets from within our own military and government, so we don't need you to be a part of that problem. This is not fair to the millions of Americans that may one day depend on the element of surprise.

Michael

What the hell people this machine is destroying the environment the exaust from this is taring a bigger hole in the ozone layer cant u tell by the exaust?... If u cant u are stupider than i thought!

First, such speculation regarding aircraft development is just that, specualtion. If there is any hard core data, the other side probably already knows about it, in more detail than what is capable of being revealed here. National security is important, but a magazine writing specualtive articles based on the writers imagination and images taken from fuzzy pictures and artists imaginative minds are not going to jeapardize teh nations security.

As for ratings points, you are reading this correct? If you didn't feel it was right why look and then complain about ratings points. As for teh environment issue. I have heard of articles that say the new batteries being used in teh hybrid cars are so toxic they cna not be disposed of because they will cause more damage to the ground environemnt than the air pollution caused by combustible fuels. And the cost of replacing them are on teh same level as almost buying a new car and they aren't that long lived.

Go figure you see or hear something that sounds good, you should really check to see if it is as good as it sounds, generally not very likely. And spell checkers work wonders in making a writer sound better than a 5 year old trying to have a tempertantrum.

Speculating on the governemtn developments in aviation, naval or any endervour has always been a hobby of the public. In a vast majority of the cases they are wrong, but in the few where the speculation has been close or correct, it has not endangered this country, as we stay a step ahead with teh next development that already makes new systems obsolete almost before they are built and deployed. Besides if it is really that secret, I would place my last paycheck on it the otherside, who is the otherside now, already knows about it.

speculation is just that. may as well post who will win the super bowl in 2015. there are enought truths mixed with irrational idea's that no one believes what they read. lets face facts, every country that can spies on all other countries, allies or not. Think we don't know what Canada is up to? I grew up in Tehachapi CA, we used to see and hear the new things as they flew around the desert canyons, no one local thought much of it back then. Today every idiot wants to 'expose the truth' of what NASA/Edwards AFB is doing out there.
has anyone seen the move the pentagon wars? better yet ever been assigned to a bradley? it was well conceived but then politicized into a pile of crap. Designed by a phd, built by a masters degree engineer and maintained by high school graduates. Thankfully scouts now have a HMMWV.

Anything published on black-op matters in PopSci both our military and advisaries have thought of a long time ago. Black-op articles are both very interesting and stimulate the imagination for the rest of us. Nothing more, nothing less. Reading anything else into this actually denotes a lack of a life--you need to go get one.

You should never divulge national security issues and or equipment on a public forum. These conversations belong in a military establishnent with the intentions of protecting the country and citizens that finance the machines that may well be the best deterent to our own self destructive impulses that is more extreme in other countries and since America has the money and technology to insure the human races existance the old saying goes {He who has the most toys wins the game and people better wake up and realize we live in an insane world and if that means that I have to take a life to save my family from harm I also feel we may have to take out an entire civilization in order to protect ours. The principle is the same only the numbers are different.So stand up and be heard because whether you like it or not your dream world does not exist and those who think it does will be the first to fall.God bless the globe and all he created I pray we have the intelligence to figure out how to fix what is wrong with the world. We all came from the same creator we should do away with organized religion. It's been corrupted for power since it's inception.

i think security should go fuck thereselfs:)

area 51 employees no longer fly in and out from the Vegas airport.

Selective revealing of new technology can actually enhance US military goals by deterring an enemy from attempting an attack by intimidation: discouraging the enemy by demonstrating that he will be found out or his operation is successful. Selective revealing of technology also reassures the investor (taxpayer) that his investment is in the best interests of the country, bolstering political support for the investment. Safeguards: Only reveal tech that is already declassified or where physics, theory or testing has already been revealed to the public.

Saying that these *black-op* articles are a threat to security is bogus. Where in the article do you see the REAL MEAT of the technology, as in chemical specs, engineering specs, metalurgy specs, etc. No where, that is where. Without that all the speculation boils down to is great science-fiction *speculation* and will likely stimulate some *real geniuses* to maybe participate when they are older/able.

So all you security-crats. Pipe down. Relax, take a chill pill. Sleep on it man.

Naaa...Like one person posted, classified items are controlled and created by individuals of integrity making (other than professional espianage)most security items safe. Lets face it if you don't think a sneak peek at your enemies "new" weaponry is a little demoralizing think again. Psy-ops play a big role in todays millitary strategies!

Guys, do any of you honestly think all the conclusions from this speculation is correct? Yeah, it's fun to read, but I don't think there is any threat to security.

SIGH! Don't be ridiculous, there is nothing sensitive in speculation. For heaven's sake if you know anything about the world of international spying and security, you would know speculation is a spook's best friend. It has been obvious in the past that both the KGB and CIA have engaged in a kind of slight of hand that involves "leaking" incorrect information to the public to throw off the scent of something "Super Secret".

Mind you I always thought the U.S. was an open and free nation, seems like the brainwashing is taking hold here a little, no? I understand national security, but paranoia is a whole other ball of wax people. Grow up, there isn't a terrorist hiding under your beds. Someone actually said "aid and comfort" to the enemy. Do you even know what the word means anymore?

Sheesh!

Do I think that guesses like this cause a risk to national security? Absolutely not. If private citizens can make the guesses then most certainly any government in the world that could or would threaten our security already has those same guesses (or better since the law doesn't necessarily mean anything to them. Guess work is fun and incites the imagination. Nothing more.

The biggest risk to so-called National Security,and indeed the rest of the world,is the military themselves.Citizens should anyway be keeping a very critical eye on their tax dollars.Throwing hard-earned tax dollars at war toys for aggressive,bullying,militaristic types,instead of investing those dollars on projects that are actually beneficial for the world,is never going to bring "Security" to anyone.Military types have very blinkered vision at the best of times.It is the military machine that is,and has always been,the biggest threat to us all.

I would just like to point out that the SR-71 Blackbird was retired with NO REPLACEMENT.

If it's top secret for security reasons - lets keep it that way! Why give clues to potential enemies?

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www.geocities.com/gearturbine

Look at it this way, if a terrorist organization has a member in the US, he is perfectly free to look up information like this, it's not irresponsible, pop. science isn't handing terrorists detailed blueprints and specifications on these machines, it's all speculation anyway.

Secrecy is always needed,especially for national security.The fact that someone investigates and takes educated guesses at what the black programs are up to means nothing.It puts enough information out there that do 2 things:Intrigue americans(who love a good butt kicking),and throws information out there, that may or may not be true, but it still does the same thing(Propagand War).Thing is, what will happen when America and her allies become so dominant on the battlefield through technology and tactics?What happens when we begin to look more like the supernatural to the rest of the world and less of the supertechnological society that we actually are?When does it not become nessacary for secrecy?The answer,Never.Secrecy will always be needed because America will always have enemies for the simple fact of our success.It's Human nature.Let the people speculate all they want.American's love the fact we are ahead of everyone else by leaps and bounds and it makes a great deterrent.Would you attack someone if you thought they had a bomber that can find and kill you anywhere on the planet within hours.Not unless your brainwashed like Al Qaeda.Would be foolhardy.Point being.As long as its just "Speculation" it is not a risk to national security.And besides what we think we know about,is probably closer to 50 years behind what is actually there.

There is no doubt,that there is national security exposure.However,we(as a taxpayor)have the right to know where our money is going.For example,we had no idea that the"BLACKBIRD"even officially existed until the 80's,even though it was developed in 1969.Also,the "STEALTH BOMBER",which was developed in 1979,was not reveled to us until 1989!!!Can you imagine what we don't know!!!The "Aurora Experiment"ïs also a fine example of government spending that is essential,but a completely frivilous waste of money considering it failed miserably!!!It was "Top Secret"and yet it was still tracked and(if you know the right people)was documented!Technology must be protected,but at what cost?!That's where the bullshit politics come into play!We can't justify things because we can't explain them based on our present knowledge!I am very biased against government crap,but how do I go on knowing that my government neglects health care and education before it's so called"security"!

YES. It is A Risk to National Security.

Speculation doesn't hurt, its just "spceculation"! Plus i would like to know where my HARD EARNED TAX DOLLARS are going to!
And if anyone wants to know the 'income' tax was supposed to be only a TEMPORARY tax! they just forgot to take it off the books! Hail to Common Law and personal Soverigntity!

Well if you ask me some secrecy is nessacary but them hiding soo much technology is not helping the country there are many things they can un-classify and still have extremly strong vehicles to fight with and society would get more advanced and help in many areas.

So the USAF,NATO,General Dynamics,Lockheed, to name just a few are developing secret aircraft well of course they are. Can you remmember when the F117 was made public then the B2 wow they are weird looking craft, especially the B2 because according to the laws of physics an aircraft without fins wont fly mmm the B2 flies perfectly without them. So in my oppinion the Aurora and other Black projects are just the next generation of military aircraft, and i also believe that the UFO conspiracy theory is a government cover up into getting the public to believe that extra terrestial beings could exist and these strange craft we see in the sky are aliens when all the time there man made "new age technology" aircraft.

All of this incredible security and billions of dollars going into the flight test center for THESE vehicles? I would personally love to ask Bill Sweetman off the record what he thinks of some of these big black deltas people are seeing. He doesn't talk about them publicly because of the professional reputation he has to keep, but I'm sure he definitely has his opinions on these. Why Mr. Sweetman? Because he comes much closer to the truth than most of the others.

Since Bush has been president thousands of innocent people died needlessly in 911. Yet, neither the Secretary of the Department of Transportation (DOT) nor the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) have lost their job. Hijacking and Terrorist attacks have traditionally accounted for about 10% of fatal accidents world-wide. This known threat existed and was well tabulated/tracked prior to 911 in world fatal accident statistics and still President Bush’s appointed a political head of the FAA that had little security or aviation experience. Neither the DOT nor FAA took the required steps necessary to keep the public and the nation safe even though the threats were known and it was their job to assure the security and safety of our sky. They operated out of fear of losing the aviation industries support for maintaining their positions and thereby allowed the nation and the traveling public to suffer needlessly. The deaths that occurred on 911 won’t even show up on the FAA’s fatal accident statistics. This is done intentionally to minimize aviation related fatalities and to give the public a false sense of security. Thus 911, like Katrina, was the result of President Bush’s Republican political appointees that had little knowledge of their appointed critical tasks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At first look it isn't obvious that the golfer Payne Stewart, and the Helios (2005 - 100+fatality) decompression crashes and 911 are related but from a aviation safety and security system view they are:

When a plane substantially deviates from its approved flight plan it is presently possible to have a remote pilot located in a secure simulator fly the plane to a safe landing at a sparsely populated airfield. Over 70% of all fatal air crashes occurrences are readily preventable if handled correctly.

Unfortunately, the data needed to accomplish this is locked up in the flight recorder and is utilized predominately in an autopsy mode. If the data is so important that it is necessary to discover the cause of a fatal crash it is much more important to prevent a fatal crash. Yet because of the aviation industry's partnership with the FAA and NTSB none of the flight data coming out of the recorders is available in real-time to proactively prevent fatal crashes. The inability to use the flight data in real time has jeopardized the safety and security of the traveling public and the nation. The astronauts were guided back from the moon because the data was telemetered to the ground in real-time. Once it got to the ground it was analyzed, and then via a concerted effort by experts, using simulations the proper and safe way to handle life threatening situation was accomplished. Yet this proven technique isn't utilized by the industrial/government partnership to keep our nation and air-passengers safe and secure.

One year prior to 911, I was the guest speaker at the International Aviation Safety Association meeting in NY where I spoke on how terrorists and decompression fatal crashes are preventable via remote control of a deviating aircraft using ciphered technology developed for our ballistic missiles. This technology can prevent most aviation crashes (approximately 70%) even those from mechanical problems and errors of commission and omission. At present a pilot has displayed only a fraction of the information necessary to make the right decision to prevent a crash. The pilot in many instances is seeing a problem for the first time. The aircraft data and air traffic control data isn't shared extensively so experts on handling the aircraft's problem aren’t consulted nor can the problem be simulated to aid in crash prevention. This data vacuum is responsible for most fatal crashes. For example, the Swiss Air and Alaskan Air fatal crashes could have been prevented if handled correctly.

In addition it is not only terrorists that sabotage aircraft. Commercial and Military pilots have also done it. When a pilot deviates substantially from the approved flight plan the aircraft should be safely remote piloted to a landing at a sparsely populated airport. Several years ago a rogue military pilot substantially deviated from his approved Continental United States (CONUS) flight plan and flew an A-10 aircraft loaded with bombs clandestinely across multiple states. It took two weeks to find the plane which had crashed into a Colorado mountain. The plane was eventually found but the bombs are still missing. Exhaustive searches were made but no one has a clew as to what happened to the bombs. Must we wait for a bigger disaster than 911 before any action takes place?

Everyone knowledgeable about the holes in our aviation system, brought about by the industrial government partnership, knew that a 911 could occur and the government allowed it to occur. Even though we knew about Payne Stewart nothing was done and so we got Helios' 100 + deaths. Presently we are just as vulnerable to a 911 disaster, decompression disaster, ... etc. as we were in 2001. The public needs to know the system is fixable for the good of our nation. Even though 3000 people died needlessly on 911 the system doesn't fix the data vacuum mode of operation. It works around the system with attempted band-aid patches that are costly and ineffective simply to protect the industry from liability suits. The necessary data is only available in the tombstone/autopsy mode. With all of the deaths that were preventable not a single FAA or NTSB person was even laid-off. Thus, the industry won out and the public and nation suffered. It is quite possible that we went into an unnecessary and horrible war just because we protected the special interest of the aviation industry. The cost of those disasters alone would have been a small fraction of the cost necessary to fix the system and we would now have a safer and securer nation. Instead, things are the same and we are vulnerable.

If you should need more info on this please don't hesitate to contact me (you can see some of my work by going to Google and doing a search on "aviation security, safety and sy levine" or go to my web site www.safelander.com. My work was also featured on the BBC show called "The Black Box". There is simply no reason, technical, cost or data privacy wise" for not using the Black Box Data in real-time, in addition to its autopsy mode, to make our nation safer and securer. The fear of liability, via law suits, should not stand in the way of the airline passenger safety, the safety of people on the ground, or our national security. It is imperative that the traveling public write to the President, their Congressional Representatives, the DOT, FAA and NTSB and demand that the Black Box data be available and utilized in real-time for the security of our nation and to substantially reduce fatal crashes.

Sincerely,
Sy Levine
sylevine1@sbcglobal.net

Let's put it in a nutshell here. Anything that can be figured out by these analysts can be deduced as well by the enemy and they probably have better equipment for spying than any analyst in the civilian sector. However, when the speculation is incorrect and the enemy attempts to build they own or try to design a defense against it they will be chasing rabbits down into their holes and wasting money. That is a very good thing. You go bad guys. Of course that when we actually decided to that project later down the road, the opposition would have a head start in it's defense. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. In the end it is a push either way. Nobody wins and nobody loses in speculating, it is a draw.

hi, every one just had to tell someone, i used to work for the government which 1 ? well thats up to you to find out. there is a spy plane that dose not come from A-51 its far far away because it canot be seen on any radar unlike the stealth plane and has been flying round russia and iraq and America for years now the americans have herd a rumor that it exists but cant track it no matter what they do or use! and it belongs to an Alie of theres!! but they have allways denied it exists much to there annoyance, i can say more mabe, next time lets see what the US goverment say about that!

So many opinions! Actually, there isn't a whole lot that could be going on that hasn't already been done. Just repackaging old ideas. In fact as many readers have pointed out the biggest most secret project is how to spend all that money!

Let me apologize in advance because I am going to cover a lot of ground and I'm probably going to make a lot of grammatical/spelling errors. I probably wont make a lot of sense either...sorry

To Mr. Bill Sweetman if he ever reads this blog:

I was standing in El Segundo at a mid-rise building directly across from the old Rockwell wind tunnels. It was some time mid morning in 1991 (I think, its hazy) and I remember feeling an earthquake.

I remember the hoopla about the CalTech seismologists claiming that it was an airplane.

During that period, I was also in school with a guy who use to work for Northrup. He was a manufacturing engineer who came out of the shop floor ranks......much older fellow. Anyway, he and I had a class together and I gave a presentation on how UFO hoopla was most likely black programs that were still classified. My prof asked me why I was interested in airplanes and Jim piped up that I asked a lot of questions that he could not answer. Anyway, a few months later, Jim gave me a photo of the B2 and the YF-23B as well as a patch that had an eagle's eyes and talons and read "Combined Test Force".

In the years that followed, I read your articles in PopSci and to this day, I still have them in my closet.

I dreamed of some day going out to Nevada to watch the sky but soon thereafter, my company started contracting direct to LADC and I was one of twelve guys that received a clearance. I had B access but no program clearance or an ADP badge. Anyway, while out on site in 601 one day, I stood on the very mezzanine from which the early top secret F117 rollout photos were taken. I never felt so patriotic in my life! I was walking around 601 and even rode the massive elevator down to the basement level tunnel where everybody enters for work.

There was quite a bit going on at 601 that day and I thought it was funny that they simply erected curtains around the secret projects. I noticed a couple of old swamper types working on a tube of sheet metal that looked like a liner for a TR-2 motor. I also noticed several wooden crates of TR-2 parts stacked with destinations to USAF bases.

In the months that followed, I had to make a trip to the LADC security office. I emerged from the office as an SR was taking off and I was told by the security gal's husband - who worked for my company - that the SR as going to take a ramjet up over the pacific that day for a test. The SR blasted off and for the first time in my life, I saw the diamonds coming out of the engines. There were a bunch of people out there that day - at the end of the runway where some guy had set up a car wash. I was shaking at the time because it was one of the most important moments of my life. I jumped in my truck and drove down to blackbird park and I touched the titanium hull and the asbestos composite hull of the A12 and SR.

Months passed and I was out on plant again, this time at M lab. I saw artist's renderings on the wall which made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I remember one poster which was of a door set against a space backdrop. All I remember of the caption was "Some see it as the end, others see it as the beginning.....(forgot this part).....comes ADVANCED DEVELOPMENT" Again, it was another moment where I felt like I was going to cry because I was standing in the very building where some of our most exotic hardware was built.

Natually, during this period, every other word out of my mouth had something to do with spyplanes. I remember receiving a PopSci and noticing an add in the back which read "HYPERSONIC SPYPLANE LANDING AT SECRET BASE" I sent the 15 bucks but my check was later returned and the individual cited "technical difficulties". It took about 6 months for the response to arrive and I assumed that someone had paid this fellow a visit and confiscated his videos. I was a bit disheartened at the time because nothing meant more to me (at the time) than obtaining some kind of proof of aurora.

Some time passed and on trip back from Laughlin, I decided to take a look at Helendale. I drove down Helendale road cleared in hot in a rental Camry and damn near bottomed the thing out on the whoops. I managed to cast a long glance at the old Helendale airport and Lockheed's RCS facility. I looked at my now-wife and said: This looks like Orange County....this is a Lockheed factory town for the radar geeks. She looked at me like I was an idiot and wanted to get home as quickly as possible.

In the years that followed, I actually saw the original drawings for the facility and I believe that Morrison Knudsen was the prime contractor. It all made sense since Helendale was so close to Plant 42 and close ride to the test site. I was picking up little tidbits of the black world day in and day out but never did I have anything tangible. I once thought that I could drive over to Helendale, flash my LADC badge, and beg for them to just let me watch a test on the pod one night but I knew that it was folly.

Somewhere during this period, I found myself out on the other side of Plant 42. I pulled in to a little redneck bar to ask directions - I think it was site 7 - and some drunk looked up from his cigarette and beer - at 10:15AM mind you - and told me exactly where to go. This time, I was walking around in an old Rockwell hangar that was to have some special purpose. I'm not sure now if it was for shuttle refurb or if it was where they would mount test vehicles on to motherships. I missed out on the contract so I never got to see what happened there.

The whole time, I was figuring that at some point, we would pick up a contract that would place me standing in front of Aurora. It never happened. I never obtained an ADP badge nor did I set foot much on Plant 42 the entire time.

Some time in 96, I was out in Amagarossa Valley in the dead of night. I was too drunk to pay attention to the sky. The following day, I was on powerline roads and goat trails all the way up to tonopah and back. Never saw a damn thing.

From 96 through 2006, I was still interested and hoped that some day, Aurora would be declassified. One lonely fall night at a vacation home of mine in the San Bernardino mountains, I heard a rumble coming from Miller Canyon. I was drinking a glass of wine on my back deck and the rumble continued to become louder. A few seconds later, I SAW A FLYING TRIANGLE BREAK ABOVE THE TREE LINE!~!!! It was bigger than an F117 and lacked the swept tail features. It appeared to have two large rectangular ducts on the bottom which appeared to be white and at the time, the first thought that came to mind was VSTOL. He had made a tight bank when be broke the tree line at miller canyon and appeared to head west toward Strawberry Peak.

The incident occurred again just shy of 9:00PM which was similar to the prior incident. One of my sightings occurred on a Tuesday and the other was also mid-week but I cant remember if it was a Wednesday or a Thursday. Anyway, after all of these years, I had finally witnessed the flight of a secret plane. Granted, I doubt this fighter-bomber sized delta wing was the aurora but nonetheless, I finally saw something.

From that last fall, suffice to say that I was bit by the bug again. I started googling my way around and when I saw Bird of Prey, I thought: "Crap, that patch that Jim gave me was from BoP!!!!" I'm still tearing my house apart trying to find it.

But it is still not the elusive Aurora. With all the X-20 research that was conducted way back in the coon's age and Ben Rich's contradictory statements in "Skunk Works", she is probably out there sitting in a hangar somewhere. With the F-121, X-33, and all of the other stories out there, she has to be, and perhaps some day, Uncle Sam will declassify the program and give us taxpayers something to be proud of.

Yours, as a fellow Patriot,

JR

PS - way back in the X-files days, Unsolved Mysteries of some other conspiracy-type half-hour show aired a clip which included a very interesting 2-3 second video of a short little black plane on taxi at a very lush green base. I would describe the plane as a short, fat SR-71 type profile. I have never been able to find this segment since it aired. I truly believe that this was an amateur clip of aurora that somebody captured from the fence at Machrinhinash.

hello every one, its me again dose anybody no what type of air craft is a I. O. P. 17?.. the trouble is america is too open with its running of the country and that leaves to them doing anything they want and with all the conspiracy that will evolve around what any one mite or mite not of seen, but the only other country i no of that gets away with every thing and no body nows about it is the uk, they have had and have started more wars and trouble around the world than you would no about. this information came from CMDR richardson of yoke? control and defence

The one thing that could make all of these billions of dollars of military spending obsolete, and threaten the status quo of companies that profit from the current climate would be progressive democratization and downsizing of the worlds governments. Imagine an Iraq, North Korea or China that wasn’t threatening its neighbors.

Democracies don't start wars. Democracies react when threatened. If the current activities in Iraq result in a limited democratically controlled government where the free market is allowed to flourish, it could encourage other peoples to take control of their countries from the dictators, communist, fascist, socialist, mullahs and kings. Over the long term, war profiteers would have to diversify and find peaceful uses for their technology to maintain their profit margins.

Finding a way to selectively try, convict and neutralize the people that profit from war would be a more efficient use of defense spending. Why kill the soldiers who are the working class of the country, when it is the ruling class making these bad decisions. Expose the greed and hypocrisy of the wealthy that profit from government, kick them out and eliminate the need to protect ourselves from them.

Find a way to limit government, not to kill honest soldiers.

Yup, the better secrecy the Goverment have on any military enhancement project, the better the product/services outcome. But as a outsider, we always need to have some knowledge about any advancing technology available expecially in medical and health area.

Okay, back to the idea to have a "secure" black project, they (the Gov) should secure also the sky above that project area as it does some time ago. Every country has a right to developed their black project as long as it doesn't give a problems to human at large.

So please gives a win-win situation to people (technology information matter) and the Government. Some project should be exposed after all the finding being settle.

I hope and think that the US government just lets certain info out there knowing that It will be published in janes or popular science. And that other countries will use that as a gauge for there military tech to counter ours but in the meantime we have stuff that you could not even dream about. We most likely have very advanced weapons and aircrafts that do not use current propulsion systems and have a greater advantage but by showing this would only let other countries know it is possible to build because one has already been developed. An example was the atom bomb and then the hydrogen bomb, Neutron bomb and so on. hopefully we have Top secret, above Top secret, and Beyond top secret The public just knows about Top secret. If the earth is a big molten metal core and a compass can be manipulated to point N E S W why can't you develop a propulsion system that magnifies what a compass does. I think and hope the US government lets us see what they want us to see in military tech to set the trend for other countries to follow. Deception is paramount and key to survival. Not being able to adapt fast enough and keeping you opponent off balance is key to success. I myself is one person with a list of military tech and weapons that I could think of that I don't see in defense tech, global security.org, janes defense etc that just does not exist. personally I think the ABM that's being built is just a front. I think we have somthing that can neutralize all incoming warheads from any enemy in any magnitude call me crazy I would have figured it out during the last 50 years with over a thousand brains.

Billions of our taxpayer dollars go into these "black programs" each year, therefore one can't be faulted for being either concerned about the spending or inquisitive about where all that money is indeed going. As far as the national security aspect is concerned, there are lines that probably shouldn't be crossed, and the people that are in the know aren't crossing them. There's an old saying "Those who talk don't know. And those who know don't talk." This applies here, for the most part anyway. We live in an amazing country. And if we have managed to build an aircraft the flies in excess of mach 8+ it makes me extremely proud as a citizen. It's one thing to throw something up on a chalkboard and calculate it's possibilities, it's quite another thing to bring those calculations to life. And that's where I feel we've made the greatest strides as a nation. By bringing the unthinkable to fruition. I personally plan on someday visiting the outskirts of Area 51, hoping to catch a glimpse of the greatness that makes me so proud.

I think it is a security risk and while i agree with your reasons you are taking away the essential element of surprise that the military needs.

haha national security risk? we have no technologically advanced enemies. infact the only reason black even came into existence is because soviet analysists could simply look at congresses' DOD budget allocations see where we were appropriating military funds and spend money to counter our programs. black and its programs are mainly just a leftovers from the cold war. if all our programs were declassified we wouldnt lose our position as the worlds only super power. infact i believe we'd benefit from the innovations of foreign engineers and scientists excited to work on an new and exotic piece of equipment. oh and incase maybe u'd argue that nations would go and build super bombers its important to remember that no other nation has built a F-117 (declassified in the 90's i might add)and no nation has anything anything at all competitive with the B-1 spirit

Whether your suspicions are correct or not exposing these national "secrets" doesn't matter for two reason. First off any foreign government trying to profit from this knowledge would have to bankrupt themselves in order to put counter measures in place. Second reason is they are already too far along in development meaning that unless the Chinese hacked them ages ago or even if they admitted to these projects they are too far along for anyone to do anything about it.

Absolutely not a Security Risk. If other competing nations need to read popular science mag to unveil what the great United States of America is developing next, then that competing nation is of little significance to us...

Its of little doubt the nations that have interest in these types of projects are already deep inside the projects themselvs, through infiltrating the networks and simply downloading the plans, or just buy the plans/information from a compromised engineer...

China steals more technology than they could ever invent themselfs. Its well known they don't invent well, but can steal and copy very well...

Trust me, if they didn't want you to know this, or the public, we wouldn't be reading it, and PopSci's website would be a big old 404 error until the site reopened with a headliner story entitled "Government's best public works".

No.

The americans are a bunch of corrupt assholes i know they have airplanes that nobody has ever seen before and then they saying to the people that the photos that are made of sightseeings from unknown aircrafts that it is a alien aircraft they try to be so secret butt i know and many other people what kind of aircrafts they have like the disced ufo i know that its a american secret aircraft cause look what they had in the 70s the blackbird that aircraft could fly 3 times the speed of light i know they now have airplanes that can teleport there are no aliens maybe way back in history butt i know that america and area 51 is a piece of corrupt lying son of a bitches

It could be a risk for national security if someone were to go too far and to try to publish the weapon systems the engenes the top speed the manuverability etc. But from just the little bit that we can learn about it from this website wont hurt anything no one could get the aircrafts weaknesses from the little bit of info that you could get from a place like this

this aurora mach6 is purely a remake and upgrade of the SR-71 and it is also a heavy weapons upon immediate and precise counter attack against threatening war freak potential countries. so if they need some back-ups give those F-series jets to the no.1 ally of US in asia, RP(repuplic of the philippines) form an elite filipino pilots, test combat, and implement! the elite pilots of US should be practicing this new bullies in the skies!

Its intresting to hear of progress.
At area 51.

if you all really want to know whats going on with the government at area 51, and you want to know who theses " aliens " are. there is a very reliable source. its called the book of ENOCH
belive it or not, it IS the truth and as in the days of noah, so sall it be when JESUS returns. just to be clear, the correct names for these "aliens" would be DEMONDS. man has been fooled by them befor because of there (limited) but for more advanced abilities than ares. its sad but true, the top secret suckers that are dealing with these entities do not realize there motive is ultimatley THE DESTUCTION OF MAN KIND !!! yes there real, only GOD him self can deal with them, and HE WILL at his appointed time. glory to GOD forever !!!

I'm sure that the intel of 'enemy' countries knows far more than PopSci. Now, I didn't mean that offensively to the editors, but let's face it: PopSci isn't exactly trying to attack the free land of America.

Any information which is here, I guarantee is just an intended leak to satisfy our curiosity. So, no matter how hard any organization attempts to - matters of national security will not be found. That has worked in this country for many years and I see no reason why it will stop doing its job now.

Carry on, PopSci! I love the articles; Good ideas with great hypothesis's.

A Risk to National Security?: nice article. i like this. they are working from several years. i have my glass of wine and enjoy these blog.

WHO NEEDS SUCH CLEVER, OVERPAID,PEOPLE TO INITIATE NEW HORROR-SYSTEMS, WHEN OUR OWN LOCAL-LOONIES HAVE DISCOVERED THE SUPER-SOAKER-FLAMETHROWER OPTION?--ON U-TUBE--KEEP THE CAR WINDOWS CLOSED AT RED LITES, THIS SUMMER, LEST THE JESTERS IMMOLATE YOU, ON THE WAY TO THE BAIT SHOP! RALPH

sorry about my english:

it's very sad, the excess of information is the perfect tool for misinformation(thanks to internet now every mediocre can BUILD information from speculative fiction), it's humane to speculate & is very true that what's doing the goverment rigth know we will be conceiving 10 to 20 years from now!

thank all of you!
Citizen of the WORLD

p.s. what about ramey base in westcoast of puerto rico; it's an old american military base that is supposedly closed?; but I have seen with my own eyes submarines come and go near ramey base why is this? and when 9/11 happened military airplanes were landing here and they kept and ultra security vigilance why? and why the majority of U.s. soldiers on ground in irak are asian,black,latinos?

My empathy is for all the world

Well, it sure as hell is no secret, PJ. The Island has been serving as a sub base for years, mainly in the east side, not south. Because of the overall water deepness that surounds the island, its perfect for an underground base should it exist. We can only agree that EVERY military mechanism was active by the events that took place on 9/11, yes even the subs were active for this fake terrorist attack on our mainland. Anyway, going back to this year old blog, technology insights have always been of interest to all, hence the existence of P.S. magazine aside other tech magazines. For anyone to believe that US inteligence counterparts are not aware of the existence(in this case the craft in question) is an understatement. IF it does exist, an educated guess is that they already know something about it, or will we confine extraordinary research powers to a magazine, putting at risk national security (not to mention, the FBI, CIA, the whole military milicia and who knows, who else would be on their back) just to sell a monthly magazine edition and kindly educating us at the same time? People, we know what "they" (goverment & media) want us to know. Period. There are no leaks for this kind of information, and if there are leaks, they will be "corrected" by the same media. Check out the film "shooter". Interesting fiction movie, or is it the real issue?

Greg H.

First rule about fight club; don't talk about fight club. Second rule of fight club; DON"T TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB!!!!

Forgot the third rule about fight club:

Never mind the first two rules about fight club.

I remain young'n dumb forever. Bush please continue with your fabulous administration. Please show us how its done.....wrong!!!

I say west but look on google earth it's really northwest on the atlantic ocean...deep water too...and I agree with you-" we know what "they" (goverment & media) want us to know. Period".

forewarned is forearmed

My problem with people like you is that you are, well, cowards. You pick easy targets. Here's a good one for you: the Yamantau Mountain "Doomsday" Complex, Latitude:54.2553
Longitude:58.1031, Beloretsk, Bashkortostan, Russia. Its area is 400 sq miles---big enough to fit inside the Washington DC Beltway. It's been in construction since the 1960s. It's bigger and badder and more sinister than Area 51! Do the public a favor and put it in the news. And take a step up from moral and physical cowardice.

Shouldn't you people REALLY be worried about what's going on at Yamantau Mountain?