A real-world demonstration of a thought experiment conducted at the University of Vienna, has produced a result that is somewhat befuddling to people with what the lead researcher calls a "naïve classical world view." Two pairs of particles are either quantum-entangled or not. One person makes the decision as to whether to entangle them or not, and another pair of people measure the particles to see whether they're entangled or not.
The head-scratcher is: the measurement is made before the decision is made, and it is accurate.
"Classical correlations can be decided after they are measured," says Xiao-song Ma, the writer of the study. Entanglement can be created "after the entangled particles have been measured and may no longer exist."
The finding can be integrated into potential quantum computers, one hopes. Causality, clearly, is a quaint, irrelevant concept.
Does this mean I really can have my cake and eat it too?
so the answer to which came first, the chicken or the egg is both?
Does this mean that we can send information back in time, and if so how far?
Goddamn you bronson255.
It is just another aspect of the paradoxes of time/space. If you throw a rock at a tree and it only travels half the distance, and half the distance again, it never reaches the tree. In reality it also reaches the tree before, after, simultaneously, and never.
Hardest thing I have done all day was try to reply to this article.
This blows my mind for some reason.
Are you not feeling so groovy. I worked for Hanna-Barbarra as a puppetteer, but that is another story.
When I posting problems, I empty my termporary internet files and cookies, and go to C:\drive right click and properties and do a Dish Cleanup. Besure to close you browser and then re-open it again after you done all this. If the browser stays open, those obsticals can stay in memory as you attempt to repost.
As for the article, if I make a fax of a ruler and so I end up with a measurement prior to taking a measurment and then decide to take an actual measurement, then ending up being the same as the fax, is it the same as this article?
Science sees no further than what it can sense, i.e. facts.
Religion sees beyond the senses, i.e. faith.
Open your mind and see!
"naïve classical world view." Wow they make a cool experiment AND are pretentious pr1cks. They must be smart. There's really no other explanation.
@manhunter098 zeno's paradox breaks down on ultra small scales. There is a granularity to space. It would jump the last little bit when it hits that level, because there would be no space in between, even though there would be some distance, if that makes any sense.
The way I see this is: if space/time is not linear, but more like a fabric, then it should also behave like the tape on a cassette, which if it twists itself in a little section, and if you, say were playing the tape forwards, then for that little section you'd get a little glimpse of what's on the other side of that section of tape, or the "backwards side". I feel time exists in both directions, forwards and backwards, at the same time, all the time, and maybe things like blackholes are little vortexes that can change the direction or tunnels that can even take you to specific spots of the opposite flow, or side of it. Little particles at the quantum level are so damn tiny they can sometimes get filtered and fall through the little holes, or pores of the fabric, thus making appearances both in our time and in the "other time" and behaving unlike anything else that's bigger and follows the ordinary rules such as the 2nd law of thermodynamics we are so sadly stuck with. Anything bigger doesn't make it through the holes of the fabric. Perhaps a time machine would be to figure out how to downsize the crap out of us to a quantum size first, and then we could jump through the holes of time, or pores of the fabric freely and appear and dissapear like some sub-atomic particles have shown to be able to do. I guess dejavues are our minds channeling into the backwards flow of time making a quantum connection of both sides of time and therefore we felt we knew what just happened. Then again I'm just a guy with no knowledge and a lot of imagination...but I do wonder.
@manhunter098 @Mycellium Zeno's Paradox breaks down at the macro level as you can see the rock will actually get to the tree. Why? Because .99999999999999999 repeating is actually 1. How do we know? Divide 1 and .999999999999999 repeating each by 3 and you get the same answer. Thus the rock always gets to the tree and Zeno's Paradox is fallacy.
Do these guys have no imagination? If I could delay the decision of whether or not to entangle some photons until after they were measured, the FIRST thing I would try would be to create a paradox, where the guys doing the measuring would tell the decision-maker their result, and the decision-maker would do the opposite. I want to see what would happen!
HBillyRufus, I was thinking the exact same thing... although the world might explode if they did that.
I heard it explained as such, Time (as we understand it) is an equation. What ever changes you make to that equation must be made to each side of the equation (just like in normal basic algebra) so every thought, action, etc gets expressed on both sides of the equation, where the present is the center point of the time equation, actions that change the future, exist in the past as well. There has been some studies showing that people will have a reaction about 5 (give or take) seconds before shown a stimulant, and over and over again, using a completely randomly generated image shown to a subject, the subject's body will start to react to the image 5 seconds before the image shows up. This study also came up because the top fighter pilots were making decisions and making adjustments to their flight path during dog fight situations that were technically impossible when looking solely at the "see, think, decide, move" timeframe. They were making adjustments almost instantly in response to their target. A sence of basic precognition usually called instinct or "gut feeling" is being shown to be a warning cue sent back by the brain from the future event to allow for corrective action. Really crazy stuff.
Playing Devil's Advocate since 1978
"The only constant in the universe is change"
-Heraclitus of Ephesus 535 BC - 475 BC
This means that the much theorized quantum computer already exists and is (possibly) performing calculations... ;)
Does this once and for all solve the riddle of whether or not we have true free will...?
@CodeZero, did you magically become 1 year older?
@codezero Are you referring to experienced fighter panticipating a very narrow range of possibilities before they happen.. Yeah, thats's predicting the future... I guess I can predict the future when I figure that my cat may or may not chase my foot depending on if she wiggles her butt. Just because the pilots are not sure they know why they do something doesn't mean they are not reacting to hours of flight training. The same study you are referring to says pilots with more experience seam to be reacting five seconds earlier. Hmm. That couldn't be anticipation through repetitive training? Fighter pilots are always trying to make the first move while attacking or evadinging because waiting for the other guy means you die.
Umm.. Anybody wondering about the data on this one? Are we assuming that the research showed the results were always the same. Are we talking about a higher probabilty or true predictive events? I always wonder about studies where the researchers are hoping for a result and then get exactly that result. Not trying to be a naive classisist, but I have always found that when we want to believe something we often don't question the results. I want to believe it but without more information I always wonder if I will make a fool out of myself at some social event with scientist from the JPL. :-)
@codezero. Oh, I almost forgot. Again, the studies you refer to with the bodies reaction to photos? Yes their bodies reacted but not always with the appropriate response... Again showing anticipation. These studies have been misrepresented for years by those want to prove some point they want to believe. But the result of inappropriate response always seems to get left out...
By the by, when subjects were not told they were going to be seeing a photo there was no pre-reaction.
So FTL communications are not possible but receiving communications from the future is?
Lets rig up a cascade of these feed in day trader info and get rich.
@adaptation, there's no communication because according to the linked study, you can't use this to send information. I have to admit that it's a bit of a head-scratcher for me how it can have a measurable state (which seems to me that you could reduce it to binary data if you wanted) yet not have "information", so maybe someone can clearly explain that to me...?
The "let's make a paradox" idea interests me as well, but I suspect that it's not possible and that if I understood the explanation for the first paragraph (that there is no information being transmitted) that I would understand why you can't create a paradox either.
That said, I do feel like we are moving closer and closer to at least Primer-type time travel where we can create some sort of anchor point in time and either travel back to it or at least communicate with it in some way.
The problem with the "paradox idea" to elaborate on zentastic,is that we must first and foremost look at what is observable in nature. Both physically and mathematically. Could something be thrown in reverse in another projected set of dimensions? For all intensive purposes it is impossible for us to tell for sure. My biggest question is whether or not this would have implications regarding the flow/force of space-time on a quantum scale. A single thread behaves differently than a quilt as a whole. How so?
"Causality, clearly, is a quaint, irrelevant concept."
Or in other words "there is no spoon"
So the Universe does not need a cause?
Creationists will hate that.
Wow Killer T, you sure do have it all figured out. Especially since saying vague convoluded things makes you difficult to argue with, thats classic political science
One might argue that this is proof of destiny or fate.. You have no free will, simply following the path laid out before you. The universe is following the path laid out before it, and when you look deep enough into it, you will see the precursor events unfold before they have time to 'butterfly effect' themselves into the present. (when they ask the question entangled or not)
(attacking Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle?)
"One often meets his destiny on the path he took to avoid it"
~Jean de La Fontaine~
Stretching Devil Advocacy
OK riddle me this (I'm not interested in hearing that it's not possible):
I once found some tools I needed to fix my stranded car. They were in a paper sack on the curb of a random street. I walked by, saw the sack, and knew the tools were in it. I looked and there they were. Nobody told me. I had no possible access to that information, how come that happened?
Come on people!! Somebody answer HBillyRufus's paradox...
HBillyRufus04/25/12 at 9:57 am
Do these guys have no imagination? If I could delay the decision of whether or not to entangle some photons until after they were measured, the FIRST thing I would try would be to create a paradox, where the guys doing the measuring would tell the decision-maker their result, and the decision-maker would do the opposite. I want to see what would happen
"In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as to be understood by everyone, something that no one ever knew before.".. Paul Dirac
Pre-Crime Division is gonna love this !