Report: GM Chooses Volt Battery Maker

I recently bought enough A123 batteries to convert a motorcycle to electric power-- I bought a BMW R80 for that purpose-- and am in the process of converting a BMW coupe to full electric power as well, which will be using a battery with similar chemistry but in a different form factor.

There are two general forms of high-performance batteries: one form is the cylindrical types similar to AA, AAA, C, and D cells; there is another general form referred to as "prismatic" that is shaped more like a textbook. The anodes, cathodes and separators in prismatics are arranged like the pages in a book.

As I understand, as a battery is charged and discharged, it swells and contracts as much as several hundred times. It is this swelling and contracting-- breathing, if you will-- that is at the heart of much of the strategy of how batteries are designed. Just how well this breathing is handled is key to how long the battery will last.

All A123 cells, as I understand, are cylindrical, like the ones I have. The cells I bought for my coupe conversion are prismatic. I am looking forward to seeing how the different form factors work in the real world.

Carbon nanotubes are extremely strong. I suspect one or more of the battery companies may try wrapping their batteries in strong layers of such nanotubes to see if that is an answer to the battery breathing.

Today I saw here in Popular Science the first mention of the Micro Bubble lead-acid batteries mentioned by Michael Siegel. I am cautiously optimistic of their battery, and look forward to hearing more about how well their battery works after several thousand charge cycles, and if there are any problems with thermal runaway as have been the case with some other batteries.

Mr. Siegel says his battery can withstand 10 minute recharges, which is quite uncommon-- the Altair NanoSafe battery is the only other battery I know of that can handle such fast cycling. To be able to be recharged so quickly, the battery must have very low internal resistance, or it will heat up dramatically during charge and discharge. Low internal resistance happens to be an important factor in reducing the amount of energy wasted during charging.

General Motors wants to say the Chevy Volt is not a hybrid, but that's ridiculous. It IS a hybrid, but is a serial hybrid which is better than the outrageously complicated parallel hybrids such as the Prius. The Volt should be far more efficient than the Prius, but it still leaves much room for improvement.

As buyers become more savvy with the technology, they will want serial hybrids that are designed to have the generator systems easily removed and replaced with additional battery packs that can extend driving range between charges. If that is done, as soon as there are even a few charging stations in a given area, the onboard generators will no longer be necessary, and will only increase the weight of the vehicle while decreasing the battery-only range, and increasing the cost of operation-- as long as the batteries are being charged from the onboard generator, they will be less efficient and will cost more to operate.

With quick-swap generators/ battery packs, the driver can still have the option of reinstalling the generator for cross-country drives to areas that may not have charging stations.

When a car is driving on batteries alone, without the added weight of a heavy generator, an electric car can be at its most efficient-- a car the size of a Corolla should be able to get the equivalent of as much as 140-160 mpg. So long as there are enough charging stations and the batteries themselves can handle fast recharges, there will no longer be a need for hybrid onboard generators.

For years, as soon as I picked up a Pop Sci magazine, I would look for articles on EVs, usually finding nothing, but I'm really happy to see all the stories on them recently.

We need to let GM and the other car makers know that we want to get through the "hybrid" phase... the phase in which we transition from gasoline to full electric cars... as soon as possible, and want cars that are designed to have the generators removed and swapped for batteries. The car makers will be reluctant to do this, though, because those engines will mean repeat business for them for tune-ups and other maintenance that full EVs do not need.

Batteries, drive motors and their related hardware are still undergoing much refinement and change. I'm optimistic that within just a few years, EVs will have ranges even greater than those we have with today's cars, and may even be cheaper as well.

The problem that fully electric vehicles suffer from though is that no matter how good the batteries you still have distance cap. Once you hit that cap you are stranded. Putting in extra batteries or more efficient once extends that cap, but you can still hit it. If 10 minute charge times are possible, that would help since it would mean that charge stations would be more feasible, but waiting that 10 minutes might be annoying if you do a lot of driving.

The nice thing about this vehicle is there is no cap. Once your batteries run out you can still get gas to go further. So you are never stranded.

I did see something about a company that was working on a fully electric vehicle where all the batteries could be swapped in and out at a refilling station. That would theoretically solve distance cap, but seems a bit awkward. Judging from the size of the batteries, the battery swap stations would potentially have to be huge (depending on how much people actually needed to swap batteries).

eggman about that cap. A gas powered car has a cap too, the amount of gas in the engine. Just because it has an emergency backup doesn't mean it defeats that unavoidable flaw in all cars. Its very Star Trek of them but its no different then a second gas tank in my gas powered car.

Volt is a great idea though. Its good to see this sort of thing finally getting out there and being somewhat practical. Now if I could just afford it...

As far as the cap is concerned, I think we could all sacrifice 10 minutes for the sake of the environment. Now, I'm no environmentalist but the gains to switching completely to battery powered cars could be significant--especially if CNT batteries improve the current cap of 50-75 miles to something comparable to current gasoline caps (400-500 miles). If we want to help the environment, simply giving 10 minutes of our time to recharge a battery, which if the cap were improved to the current gasoline caps would only occur about once a week, could really make a difference. Since electric cars contribute about 30% less Carbon emissions, I for one believe electric cars (NOT hybrids) are a step in the right direction.

Jyelland, there is a huge difference between a Gas powered and Battery powered car.

When you run out of fuel in a gas powered car you stop at a gas station and minutes later you pull away with a full tank.

When you run out of fuel in a battery powered car you call a tow truck or park your car for a few hours (maybe longer).

Now, as I said, if they can actually get the charge times down to 10 minutes, then maybe it isn't a problem. Though if the usage is high that 10 minutes could turn into a much longer time while you wait in line for all the people ahead of you. I already wait in line for gas at my local station and that is with mere minutes to fill. Make it 10 minutes and the problem gets a lot worse.

On the bright side, the frequency with which you would have to use a 10 minute charge station would probably be very low so it may not be a problem and it may not be a hassle. But again, that is assuming the 10 minute charge is actually possible. If not, then we have a problem.

I totally agree with the that there is a cap to it. But it is a hybrid not totally electric. If we do go totally electric,cars will have more of a cap. However the Volt is a extremely efficient hybrid vehicle and it can go 40 miles on complete electric, then it runs on gasoline and once it starts running on gas then it can go (varying reports) up to 400 miles.

Now I don't know about the rest of the world but I don't think I would live that far away from my job. When we get there to park our cars we plug in too. Therefore charging the battery again so we don't have to waste more time on the way home,wondering are we going to run out of charge. Obviously there would be problems with that scenario but that is what is might end up being.

But seriously how many people can go roughly 350 to 400 miles without taking a pit stop. So there is a cap but I don't think it would be reached unless you really try to hit it.

I truly hope it all works out but we wont know until it does and we hear about more testing.

Our CNT (Carbon Nano Tube)Battery has actually gone through over 1,000 full charge and discharge cycles without a loss of performance the actual recharge time was 6 minutes. The new electrolyte and other modification has reduced the heat problem during charge to a minimum.

As for distance. Our battery exhibits an 800% improvement in performance as a comparable lead acid battery. The Current Electric Car was getting approximately 70 mile on a charge with a 8 hour charge time on 240 volts. The CNT Battery the Current will get 400 + miles at highway speeds and a 6 minute recharge.

You are right bbruening41, this car does not suffer from the cap because it has a gas engine. Only a fully electric vehicle truly suffers from a cap.

Incidentally, everyone keeps talking about 10 minute charges and driving 400 miles on a charge. At the moment, that is not science, it is science fiction. There are no electric vehicles currently in development (or even research as far as I know) that can charge in 10 minutes or go 400 miles. Of course Mr. Siegel keeps talking about his CNT batteries, but it sounds a bit too much like an spam advertisement. If he can tell me what auto companies he is working with, I will be much more interested.

Personally, if I could get a fully electric vehicle that would get me to and from work every day on a single charge, it would probably be worthwhile. But I am going to have to keep my gas powered vehicle for now for the longer trips.

On the other hand, a car that can operate as fully electric 90% of the time and gas powered for the remaining 10% means I only need one vehicle rather than two. And that is a major selling point in my book.

Until you actually use an EV for daily driving, you can't fully appreciate the many differences from today's cars. You really have to think outside the box to grasp

I live in Los Angeles, which is very pro-EV, and have several friends that convert gasoline cars to full (non-hybrid) power: they remove the engine (preferably one that is already ruined due to overheating, etc), gas tank, catalytic converter, and replace it with an appropriate motor, batteries, and controller.

Hybrids are only needed for longer-range driving, and even then they'll only be of use until there are enough public high-speed charging stations that you would be able to drive anywhere you want without an onboard charger.

Since hybrids can run off of either gasoline or electricity, at first glance you might think you'd rather have a hybrid for the convenience. But as long as a hybrid is running on gasoline, it's operating far less efficiently-- a true full electric vehicle gets the equivalent of well over 100 mpg., whereas hybrids are doing good to get anything over 50 mpg. A gasoline engine is not efficient, even when it's used to run an electric car. When you make a point of driving on plug-in electricity alone, you notice a dramatic difference in savings.

Eggman and others say how it is that they just could not deal with an EV that took 10 minutes to recharge. If you actually had an EV, you'd think otherwise. If an EV only had a range of, say, 120 miles before it needed to be recharged, and your daily driving does not usually exceed, say, 60 miles, you would actually spend far LESS time standing around: if you are 30 years old, you've probably already wasted 100 hours of your life standing next to gas pumps, time you will never recover. But if you had an EV, you might never have to go to a gas station again-- most of the time you would be taking a mere 3 seconds plugging in your car at home, and walking off... next morning, you spend another 3 seconds unplugging, having "refueled" for as little as three dollars (if it's really discharged, but more likely only a dollar or less) rather than the $50.- $80. most people spend every time they gas up. You notice an immediate difference in savings.

Wasting time? How many hours a year do you spend getting smog tests, tune-ups, oil changes, air filter changes, fan belt replacements, water hose replacements, brake jobs and other work that you would not need with an EV? (That's right-- because an EV uses regen braking, you are unlikely to need pad replacement for many years. Brakes are only needed for parking, and at very slow speeds. Maybe that sounds complicated or confusing, but the first time you ever drive an EV with regen you'll see it takes no training or adjustment on your part.) And that's not just a waste of time-- it's a waste of money and resources, too. All the old engine oil, filters, fan belts, mufflers and other stuff has to go somewhere when it wears out. A typical EV only has one moving part in the electric motor, and maybe another dozen or so in the transmission, differential, etc... very simple, and easily maintained. EVs are very nearly zero maintenance. That's a HUGE time saver.

Oh... and the transmission-- EVs have no need for a reverse gear, since the electric motor just needs to turn in reverse to back the car up. And since electric motors do not idle, there is no need for clutch slip when taking off from a red light or stop sign. Since electric motors have a much flatter torque curve, they do not need 5 or 6 gears like gasoline cars do to be efficient-- two gears serve the purpose quite well, thank you. The result is a transmission that is far simpler, requires far less service, and is not burning up from the heat conduction of the engine. Electric motors get warm, but no part of an electric motor gets as hot as an engine does.

Back to charging stations: when your battery is so low that you do need a charge, batteries can be charged to less than full capacity-- typically, if it takes 10 minutes to fully recharge a NanoSafe or A123 battery, it can be recharged to 85% in just 3 minutes or so, which is probably as much as you'll need to finish driving on even a very busy day.

There is a 9/11 connection to all of this as well. Saudi Arabia was the country that financed all of the terrorists and all other expenses, in case you have forgotten. And they continue to fund IEDs, suicide bombers and other terrorism, as well as Iran, Syria and other OPEC countries. The administration is afraid to confront these countries about these issues because we are totally addicted to foreign oil; the administration is unwilling to have even further disruptions in supply by ruffling the feathers of the terrorists, so they turn a blind eye to the whole issue. When you drive an EV, you are not helping to fund terrorism, you are helping to keep the peace.

All this talk of "caps" is irrelevant. When you're driving an EV and you see all the incredible advantages, especially the day-to-day travel expense savings, you find ways around those problems. If you check around locally, there's a good chance you'll find a grass-roots group that's formed for no other purpose than to share info on how to convert cars to battery power.

Google ELECTRIC VEHICLE ASSOCIATION, ELECTRIC AUTO ASSOCIATION, and PLUG-IN AMERICA for a good start. If you're on a budget, some guys are using used fork lift motors and deep-cycle marine batteries, although I recommend "prismatic" lithium iron phosphate batteries if you can afford them. ("prismatic" is not a brand name, but the battery design-- they are shaped like books and they have beefy tabs on the top with screw tabs to attach cables, rather than having to weld or solder on terminals as cylindrical batteries require.)

There are two kinds of hybrids: serial and parallel. Only parallel hybrids are sold today, and they are not worth buying. They are impossibly complex and yield no benefit to the car buyer-- parallel hybrids have two entire drive trains... one electric drive train, and one gasoline drive train... each of which drives the wheels. All that complexity makes them confusing and difficult to work on, which is exactly what the car companies want-- they want you to rely on them to keep them running.

Serial hybrids are much simpler-- they are essentially pure battery electrics that are far more efficient than a Prius or other typical parallel hybrid; serials are just battery electric cars with a small generator that is along for the ride in case the batteries start to get too low. The Chevy Volt will be a serial hybrid, although they try to deny that. The bad thing about any hybrid is that the generator is just dead weight that reduces effiency and acceleration, especially if you're doing 90% of your driving without any need to recharge before you get back home. It's like driving around with 100 lbs. of cement in the trunk.

The nice thing about serial hybrids is that once there are a comfortable number of high-speed charging stations around and you no longer need all that dead weight, you can yank out the generator and gas tank... the car will be much lighter, more responsive and economical then... and if you want, you can replace that generator with more batteries to extend your range and increase performance.

Some states offer incentives of several thousand dollars to drive EVs. California and Illinois do, although I'm sure others do as well. Even EV conversions may be able to qualify for some of these incentives.

Why are EVs so more efficient? Here are just a few of the factors, but there are more: you never idle at red lights, stop signs, or drive-thrus... in heavy traffic, a gasoline engine is at its least efficient-- in an EV, you're hardly using any energy at all. An EV has less than a dozen moving parts total, all of which are spinning in a circular motion, which is far more efficient than the movement of heavy pistons, lifters, connecting rods and other reciprocating parts; EVs do not waste lots of energy churning heavy liquids in torque converters; and EVs do not generate lots of waste heat and noise that do nothing to push the car forward, and do not waste even more energy trying to suppress all that heat and noise.

i agree with you completely billdale, gas engines are very inefficient and that a full EV is way more efficient. But until the entire nation pulls away from the oil, more efficient hybrids are going to have to come first, then full EV's. But most people are so attached for gas engines for some reason or another. However I still love gas engines because you can hear the roar of an engine when you rev it. And i hope you can really rev an EV someday.

Carrying electricity around in big batteries to power cars is just dumb. It is wholesale stupidity. HELLO! Electricity moves at the speed of light! Electricity is cheap to move--in wires! What if we had to move Hoover Dam's power to LA by carrying batteries on our backs. We'd still be in the stone age. Tesla (the real guy, not the dumb battery-driven car company) invented a way to move power through the air for short distances. We have a power distribution network that extends along most roads. Are we just a bunch of ditzy air-heads? We must modify automobiles to 'charge on the move' at least on main roads and keep batteries down to an absolute minimum. That way, we'll save the energy cost of carrying big batteries in our electric cars. That will save us half the vehicle weight. That will save us the caps. That will save us from having to ever go to gas stations or recharging stations ever again. That will save us.

To billdale:

I sure wish people would stop mis-interpreting/quoting me. At no point have I said that I personally would find it annoying to wait 10 minutes to charge my car.

Personally, if you can give me an electric vehicle that goes 100k and charges in 10 minutes, I will probably buy it.

However, I am not the masses. In order for the electric car to be successful you have to convert the masses, not me. And the masses will look at things like charge times and low range. They will look and say "well, sure this goes 100k and charges in 10 minutes, but my gas vehicle goes 600k and fills up in 3 minutes."

You will have much better luck converting the masses with a hybrid than you will with a fully electric vehicle.

Now the real point is that you can't give me a fully electric vehicle that goes 100k and charges in 10 minutes. Currently that doesn't exist. And until it does, we are going to have to deal with hybrids because like it or not, most people occasionally have to drive more that 100k. It may not be often (Once a month? Once a year?), but I doubt the masses will be convinced if they realize that a fully electric vehicle means they can't go on a road trip.

Sending power through the air to cars on the road? That is an unrealistic way to run an EV. The big problem is infrastructure to place power transmitters along even half of the main roads in North America would take many years and cost insane ammounts of money. People in the country or remote areas would have real problems with this sort of arangement. Sending enough power through the air to power hundreds of cars could be dangerous also sending power through the air is not as efficient as wires, the wasted power would be tremendous. It would limit cars to main roads, no off-roading, no long drives through the country.
People who live near roads could steal power. There are far too many holes in this idea.

I didn't know until today that there is a battle for the contract to build lithium-ion batteries.

To make an electric car with a small gas engine on the side for back up is the teams goal.

I think they will make it and build the first car with it being electric.I also hope they will cause it would help our country out alot.

I didn't know until today that there is a battle for the contract to build lithium-ion batteries.

To make an electric car with a small gas engine on the side for back up is the teams goal.

I think they will make it and build the first car with it being electric.I also hope they will cause it would help our country out alot.