SETI Turns on Allen Telescope Array

There are not aliens. Wasted money.

Wow to think someone is so little minded remember when the earth was flat!

Folks, there are more important things to do than searching for extraterrestrials. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that there are any living beings capable transport themselves across the distances in our galaxy. If you think it is likely that there are any extraterrestrials capable to come visit Earth you know little of our galaxy and the physics involved. The probabilities are pretty small. It is a popular waste of money to search for aliens, just like it will be popular to send humans to Mars.
We have HUGE problems on this planet that need to be solved if you want the human race to make it through the next, say, 200 years. Hoping for an alien race to save us (or to unite humans in the face of extreme danger) will not get us anywhere. Each of us has to begin now to do what is needed.

Stop hoping for superior beings to get us out of the mess. Or for them to get here. It is a colossal waste of brain power and energy.

Nothing is impossible and not everything has been (or ever will be) discovered - but it does not speak for your ability to reason if you believe and spend millions without evidence or repeatable observations. Especially if the observable facts are making it very improbable that confirming what you are searching for has lasting and relevant impact on our current global situation.

Karsten
http://www.polluteless.com

That's good that Christopher Columbus and all the past discoverers/inventors didn't waste their time listening to people like you, Kris.

And you can use the internet because people bothered to search where others didn't want to go.

It might not be too difficult to find , in our society, bigger wastes of money that clearly serve no purpose (look toward dictators, military efforts, and such).
At least, this one serves a purpose.

Lastly, there is enough money on this world to take care of any other task. Searching for extra-terrestrial civilizations doesn't mean that you can't make your best efforts to protect our planet at the same time.

And like in every research, you never know what unexpected discovery can come out. Actually, there is a probability that searches for other worlds can save our planet in the end.

So please, don't be so close minded.

I often wonder if perhaps we should be searching interdimensionally rather that across the radio spectrum. For conversations sake, let's assume that events such as Roswell did occur. The Roswell crash happened shortly after nuclear explosions occurred on our planet. I wonder if a nuclear explosion can act as a sort of beacon, interdimensionally, allowing advances species to coordinate the location of potential advanced civilizations that they can travel to via interdimensional transport. I just think this may be more realistic when considering the incredible amount of space time that needs to be overcome in order to transport to another star system.

I wont say aliens dont exist, the universe is far to vast.
But I will say its a waste of time and money for if there is life out there I really dont think they will have a ham radio to pick the signals up from. Either the life will be uncivilized or far beyond our means of communication.
We could have better success trying to communicate with other animals on this planet.

Zych, did you read my post above?

Before you start communicating with animals, I suggest you learn how to communicate effectively with human beings.

By communicating effectively, I mean reading the whole content of a post, and quit ignoring valid points that have been done, so that the debate came move forward.

So, I will repeat for you : Using money for E.T search doesn't prevent others from trying to communicate with animals, ants, stones, spirits, or whatever. And again : discoveries made from E.T search can potentially pave the way to discoveries about other areas of research. Just like better computing allowed better climate modelling.

BTW, my first post was directed to Karsten, not Kris.

Sorry Kris :)
I hope you'll forgive my mistake.

Franck:

This has nothing to do with narrow-mindedness. This has to do with probability and physics. Columbus was not trying to discover new land. He knew the earth was not flat and wanted to go to India. Yes, he stumbled upon new land, but that was not improbable by any means.

I love sceinece fiction and I can IMAGINE a whole lot of solutions for our species (and science fiction authors can do that even better) but just because one can imagine a possibility does not change that pursueing it seems to be rather distracting to say the least. Even worse: We find a signal and focus more attention on it without ever being able to go there or communicate with those who sent the signal (if it is one). Just sending a radio signal to the nearest next star takes about a decade. Waiting for the reply another one. Two decades of hope down the drain and not much done on the planet to keep it in a condition that is worthwhile living. That is assuming we find a signal on the nearest star. What, in all honesty, do we do with a signal that arrived from a system so far away that it already traveled several hundred or thousands of years to get here? Respond (how?) and wait? Seems silly considering the problems we have as a species. How can an alien species help us? Give me one reasonable example.

Obviously, spending money on CETI is just a drop in the bucket in comparison to other expenses. I will comment about those when I see something written about it. Even though there are more wasteful items, it is a waste.

There is a probability for anything. But there are probabilities for other issues that make those issues much, much more pressing. I say, let us focus on real pressing issues, not on close-to-groundless hope. Realizing this is not narrow-minded. That is smart.

Once the boat is not sinking any longer, some energy may be spent on looking for land beyond the horizon. Right now work needs to be done and heads need to be pulled out of the clouds.

Karsten
http://www.polluteless.com

Karsten,

Your whole post is (again) based on the silly asumption that studying one area distracts the whole planet from studying others areas. It's absolutely unrealistic.

If you want more money for ecology so badly, then go ask some more cash to those who waste an enormous amount of it without doing any scientific research at all. It's not too difficult to find them.

Spending money on science is never a waste.

And SETI (not CETI) is privately funded BTW.
If individuals chose to give money to this project instead of others, it's their own private choice. It's not a political choice.
Or are you a little "green dictator"?
Do people tell you what you should do with your money?

Lastly, even if we can't communicate with other civilizations, we can know if they exist or not. But maybe you're against knowledge too?

I am all for searching for any one or thing out there. What bothers me is this, we are depending on computers to sift thru the static to find an something not random in all the chaos . We have had countless hours and years spent trying to communicate with Dolphins the next smartest thing on this planet, with virtually no real results. We can not expect to even remotely be able to communicate at any real level with aliens, however we can only hope that they are smart enough to figure us out and find a way to communicate with us. We had just better hope that they are within say 75 light years from here because that is just about as far as our transmissions have made it thus far. Also what we must think about is what have we as humans done to all living things on this planet, dominated and used them to our best interst. Now I am no greenie, hippie or naturalist, but a realist. If an "advanced" species does discover us what is to stop them from making us the ants under the microscope.

Huge waist of money and resources. think about it, the land they used to put those dishes will eventualy be need for homes and natural resources in the next 10 or 20 years. WASTE OF LAND,RESOURCES, and MONEY

By the way Frank you are a dimwit, ok??? You can't honestly think that there is any life out there can you? If there was, they would have found us.

Hi Adam :)

Well, like many other participants on this blog, you base your opinion/judgement on pre-conceived ideas. To ut it simply, you're not thinking by yourself, out of the box.

Think about it : why would we have to communicate in order to live in harmony with another specie?

I live with cats. They don't have any language I can understand. I'm not even certain we see the same reality. But, I love being with them. They seem to enjoy my company too. I love watching them doing their stuff together.

You see, I can peacefully interact with species that I can't communicate with.

As for the domination of other species you're talking about, I believe that having a clearest picture of what the universe is for real will make us more humble in the long term.

If another specie consider us as ants, what's the problem? Just accepting it is true humility.

is this a debate or is it a blog?? come on guys! are you adults or are u like jarjar binks???

Halo pwns :

The doctors from the psychiatric asylum didn't find you yet but hey, they exist you know.

Not being found by someone doesn't mean that that someone doesn't exist.

Halo pwns :

Please define "waist of money".

Is this a belt made of gold or something?
Or love handles maybe?

I love the idea of any further space exploration, especially if it is privately funded. Sure, individuals could sped their money to feed starving children, or take care of AIDS orphans, and who knows? Maybe they do that too. Also, science fiction has furthered science reality. I have some old literature, that talks about the use of humans because there was no way one could build a computer small enough to send on the deep space voyages! We can never stop learning enough. When you do, it closes your mind to anything else, especially the ideas of others. To oppose is to oppress, and I believe that was the reason our country was founded. Imagine what we could do if we encouraged others, even if we ourselves weren't sure, but believed in the rights of others, not just ourselves. Imagine the example we would set for others countries. Imagine other intelligent life finding us that way. Right now, I would rather have someone on my side in research with helpful skepticism, than someone who scoffs and dares me to prove them wrong. We are a long way off from Star Trek, where all nations, sexes, and species worked together. It sure would be nice, however!

Sorry, my grammar got away from me, our country was founded to get away from oppression of others.

Also, if you visit the website for the Allen Array, you find that this amazing project is in use for more than searching for alien life. But don't let me tell you to find out for yourself!

I do not recall using insulting language and I do not see how you contribute constructively to this issue when you make fun of other people's typos, insult them, or question their sanity. Yes, I made a mistake. It is SETI, of course. I know what it stands for. Brain skip. Sorry.

Most certainly cats have a language you understand. That is why you feed them, pet them, bring them to the vet. etc. Good thing they already live with us on this planet, not thousands of light years away. Wouldn't do us any good if they did. But, I admit, it would be cute to know.

And even though I feel you wrote that I wrote things I did neither think nor write, I think all has been said.

Karsten
http://www.polluteless.com

someone once asked me why i thought there could'nt be aliens here. my response was and always will be... the same reason we're not there

Karsten,

The only person I gave the cold answer was the childish Halo. So please, don't act as if I mistreated you because it isn't true at all.

Now, I feed my cats because I know that they would die if I don't. It has nothing to do with communication at all. They can't tell me if they have a headache for example or if their belly hurts. Usually, you bring a cat to the vet when it is already in visibly bad condition or for preventive vaccines.

Lastly, that's good to hear that you'd kind of like to know if other civilizations exist ... which is a good progress :)

Wayne,

You clearly are a victim of ethnocentrism because you (wrongly) assume that all the other existing civilizations are only as advanced as us.

Then you'd say : but if they were so advanced they would already have come here?

What if they decided no to?
What if they don't have any interest toward us?
What if they know it might be fatal to us?
Maybe they have their reasons, good or bad.

Or maybe, and it is more probable, we are located in a part of the galaxy that has little life, which makes us very hard to find even for a really advanced civilization located on the other side of the galaxy.

As you can see here, we are quite excentred : http://www.aaps.k12.mi.us/aaps.planetarium/files/wearehere.jpg

Well Franck, I do believe that communication is more than words. And if you know that your cat is hungry, or wants to be petted, or is in any other need that you can fulfill, your cat will communicate with you through, dare I day it, body language. They use sounds, the position or their tail and ears have meanings, and when they rub against you - you know what that means. Maybe you do not respond to this but it is certainly acknowledged that we are able to communicate with animals, especially pets. Almost every interaction between trained animals and humans has to do with communication. Because we can communicate with them is why we like them and they are OK with us (we respond to their attempts to communicate). So, why do you reduce communication to words or text? Or do you not?

Karsten
http://www.polluteless.com

Karsten,

You seem to be a victim of anthropomorphism.

Communication occures when you are 100% certain that the information you are conveying has been understood by the recipient.

The problem is that you will never know for sure that your cat understands your feelings toward him. People want to believe they understand, but no one knows for sure.

This being said, we both agree that two species can positively interact together with little means of communication, which is the main point in favor of the search of extra-terrestrial life (... as long as we continue to pay respect to the species on earth).

I mean, even the parasites interact with their hosts. And they don't need body language for that. Only mutual interest will suffice.

Okay, SETI is paid for by private investors. Good. Not much money if compared to the big picture. Cool. Do I have to respect scientists or investors who throw away money. No, I do not and I will go even further. I think it is not only wasteful, but also "dangerous" and "irresponsible" to search for extraterrestrial intelligence at the current situation and level of development of humanity.

Stick with me here, I am developing this as I write and it will be a while before I am done.

Here is why: I have the feeling that the most powerful and influential nations on this planet have finally begun to realize that we cannot continue using the resources of our planet as it is still common. The dawning has not come easy and is still on very shaky and much questioned grounds. Many people are unconscious of the problems with the environment and sustainability. In addition, and certainly not to a less problematic degree, humans kill, rape, torture each other, often based on unscientific data or superstitious believes, religion, spiritualism, etc. Looking at human kind as a whole makes me think very few positive thoughts. I believe that scientists, designer, engineers have a responsibility for all possible results of their work. Just because someone else pays for the work does not mean you are not a participant. And it does not mean that it is value-free. Anything you do has consequences and if you can see that where it is going is better left alone, you have to leave it alone.
I do believe that SETI will not find anything, but I can imagine that IF they actually find an equally intelligent and technological highly developed extraterrestrial species our planet will be thrown into a pretty good tail-spin. Many will dispute the data violently. The attention will shift away from relevant projects. Individuals may stop caring. Humans are crazy enough as it is. We are not mature enough to process or handle the discovery of an alien supreme being. We need to spend our energy (and mostly can do this since currently SETI is only a minor distraction) on the development of socially and technologically sustainable habits. IF (and this is a possibility) SETI finds what they are looking for we have a HUGE distraction that will result in changes that we really do not need. We are at a tipping point. It can go either way.

I am curious. It is human to be curious. But I question and disrespect those who put the satisfaction of their curiosity above their knowledge of what could go wrong. You have a responsibility on this planet and what you do has effects that can be judged and estimated.

Science is not child's play disconnected from any consequences. I want scientists to come to the understanding that they have a responsibility and decide themselves. And it would be great if we as a society could train scientists to be not only be great scientists, but also far-sighted, responsible, and respectful scientists.

Food for thought.

Karsten
http://www.polluteless.com

If it is mutual interest it is not parasitism, it is a symbiosis. Parasites use you against your interest.

According to Merriam-Webster communication is:

1: an act or instance of transmitting2 a: information communicated b: a verbal or written message3 a: a process by which information is exchanged between individuals through a common system of symbols, signs, or behavior ; also : exchange of information b: personal rapport 4plural a: a system (as of telephones) for communicating b: a system of routes for moving troops, supplies, and vehicles c: personnel engaged in communicating5plural but sing or plural in constr a: a technique for expressing ideas effectively (as in speech) b: the technology of the transmission of information (as by print or telecommunication)
— com·mu·ni·ca·tion·al Listen to the pronunciation of communicational \-shnəl, -shə-nəl\ adjective

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/communication

See nothing about 100% certain that it is understood, nor believe that this is even possible. In any medium.

Karsten
http://polluteless.com

Karsten

Franck:

I had to actually look it up to be sure. You think or suspect that I am suffering from "humanizing" an animal (or all animals) because I am able to see communication between animals and humans? Where do you get that from? That is jumping to conclusions about what I think based on VERY little information. Actually based on information that has nothing to do with humanizing anything. I did not write which human "attribute" or "emotion" I am reading into animal behavior and without that you cannot come to that conclusion. It is the essential element!

Of course I do not know what an animal wants for sure. Most of the time I do not even know exactly what other humans want. No one does. Not you, not me. And it is not humanizing an animal's reaction if one concludes that it wants to be petted when it rubs against your leg. That is a pretty good interpretation of signals sent based on previous experience (like all successful communication is) and that has nothing to do with anthropomorphism. Please get those things right. It is not fun to have to correct you in regard to your incorrect opinions about me that you developed out of nowhere.

We do agree that communication is possible. We do agree that we need to respect living beings on this planet and that SETI research will not stop it.
We do not agree that science is free from considering the consequences for its actions. And we do not agree that funding or supporting "all" scientific research needs to be respected or tolerated. I learned enough about what happened in WWII to condemn certain scientific research. Adults have responsibilities for direct and indirect outcomes of their actions. As a society we have allowed limitless playing around for a long time and I am pretty certain is has gotten us into the mess we are in.
I believe SETI is horsing around at a time when horsing around is not appropriate. I hold the same opinions about funding circumnavigations of the planet with balloons, hot dog eating competitions, fashion and car shows, warfare, etc. And I am happy that I am just one in a democratic society that is constantly changing.

Karsten
http://www.polluteless.com

To answer some comments here, and I am certainly no expert.. but.

"There are not aliens. Wasted money."

So you are saying the universe is dead, with the exception of us? And.. it's thier money to waste.

"It is EXTREMELY unlikely that there are any living beings capable transport themselves across the distances in our galaxy"

Who said anything about alien visitation? of course it's unlikely they are visiting here. what has that to do with this research?

"We have HUGE problems on this planet that need to be solved "

Of course we do, we always will have whether private indivduals spend thier money on this research or not. I would suggest you delay your next new car purchase, because certainly there are problems in the world that need addressing first.

"Stop hoping for superior beings to get us out of the mess"

Who said anything about having superior beings getting us out of this mess?. This research is not about that. it's about finding out if there is anyone else in the universe besides us.

"We have had countless hours and years spent trying to communicate with Dolphins the next smartest thing on this planet"

I fail to see the correlation of Dolphins and the existance of life elsewhere? What has one to do with the other?

"WASTE OF LAND,RESOURCES, and MONEY"

It's their money to waste. A few acres won't make or break the planet

This is a search to see what, if anything is out there. It has nothing to do with UFO's, alien abductions or other nonsense phenominon. It's not publically funded, so how Allen and group spend thier money is non of your business. Just as I have no business in how you spend YOUR money.

I think you should rethink statements like: "I have no business in how you spend YOUR money." You do not know how I spend my money and depending on that you may very much object to those "private" interests of mine. Child pornography and dumping toxic waste into oceans are NOT my privately funded interests, but they are certainly privately funded by some people and may not even be illegal in some places. Of course SETI cannot quite be compared with that. It is by a matter of (a large) degree different.

Just because it is privately funded does not mean it is no other person's business. Unless you do your research on a different planet, it may be someone's business what is done on this planet IF IT HAS FORESEEABLE OR EVEN MEASURABLE EFFECTS ON OTHERS. This is obviously a big can of worms to open and this statement needs to be regarded with caution. I do believe though that personal freedom has gone too far and has brought us in conflict with global interest. Scientific research without limits has issues. I would like to know what potential benefit humans could gain from this research, and just because it this research CAN be done is not enough for me. I take the liberty to disrespect scientists who waste time, use valuable resources, and distract the public from relevant issues.

And don't worry about my next car purchase. It would be none of your business if I followed your advice. But following my own it is your business how much I consume and pollute and I can tell you that I will keep (but drive as little as possible) my 1997, 38mpg, Saturn for still a long time to keep my consumption and pollution impact low.

Karsten
http://www.polluteless.com

I think that to say aliens do NOT exist is a seriously ignorant and close-minded statement. However, I will say that I seriously doubt that there is an alien intelligence at or near enough to our level to communicate with (or even WANT to communicate with) us and be within a range that makes some argument for this expenditure of money reasonable. Given how many people are in dire straits with our failing economy (myself included) I think this money could have gone to a much better cause.

If you want to keep the money in the scientific community then this money could have gone to alternative fuel research or new aerospace technologies given the coming growth of air traffic. The money could have helped pay for other space-related projects as well. Perhaps ones that advance our technology and not just ones that look for others.

I'd love to meet a race of sentients on our level, but I think it's so far off that we should focus more on OUR planet right now. If we keep it up, we won't see the forest for the trees....and pretty soon their won't be any trees left.