The Older Brother Effect

that still doesn't account for only children.. and first borns...

I'm the first in my family and I'm gay

unless the genes are passed from grandmother to mother... since my mom has 2 other brothers

would that raise the chance of me being gay by 60%? or am I looking at this wrong

Note it reads, "More likely" not the only cause/reason.

Personally, I'd like to see the entirety of the research.

The average percent of participants with one older brother who were gay in the study was 3%. The likelihood increased up to 5% depending on the number of older brothers the participant had. So 30% of 3% isn't such a huge jump as some believe the article may insinuate.

Its not hormonal, its a preference...an attraction...
How about being athletic? Or if you enjoy broccoli? Would that be different if I had two older sisters??
I like to wear jeans...That might just be because I'm the eldest.

This is just another liberal biased study to give legitimacy to homosexuality and their agenda to legalize gay marriage. Sorry but I don't buy into that junk.

This is just another conservative biased comment to give legitimacy to gay-bashing and to further the bashers' agenda to make it constitutionally illegal for gay people to marry, simply because they don't fit into the conservatives' idea of what a family should be. I don't buy into THAT junk.

You'll need alot more data to prove causality between biological older brothers and homosexuality. For one thing, you'll need to prove that it is developmentally induced. If it is, then genetic variations and contributing factors would need to be identified to support the claim. Until then, be willing to accept homosexuality as a preference and not a condition.

What about lesbians? There are two genders after all, and both have the possibility of being homosexual. Considering this is a 'scientific' study, why didn't they take information on the other gender as well? Just something to ponder.

I also question the 'statistics'. Considering that a certain percentage of the population is homosexual, it stands to reason that every child you have could be gay if the prior ones are not. That's an oversimplification of statistics, but you can probably understand what I mean.

This study fails to acknowledge one last variable: How the mother's treatment of the kids may differ. It's not conclusive untill _all_ variables but birth order are controlled for.

Even still, I'd think 2% (the difference between average and 'younger brother' rates of homosexuality) would be within a margin of error myself...

Being homosexual is just a way of life, not anything that can be genetically induced. If that were the case, my grandmother who gave birth to 5 girls would have had at least one that was a lesbian, and gave birth to 4 sons and none of them are gay. Overanalyzing statistics causes errors like these in which are "likely" but not probable.

Homosexuality is just another one of those wonderful mysteries of life that will take mankind much more effort to understand. I do not believe that one 'scientific' study will be able to explain the effects of the prenatal environment on siblings. My fear is that data from such an incomplete study, could be used negatively against fellow citizens who are gay or lesbian.

You stole this from 60 Minutes! (Jk, but it was on 60 Minutes a few months ago as well.)

geez what is the big deal ?...........if some one is gay WHO CARES! let them be who they are. This study is aimed at putting a finger on something that causes people to be gay. There are too many variables in life to figure it out exactly.......and they make it sound like some type of disease. Like if you smoke 10 cigs a day you have a 30% higher chance of getting caner (just makeing up that figure). Let people be who they are. The reason half of the problems in the world are out there, is people can just not accept other people are differant then them. Accept it! I challenge anyone to give me 1 reason that is not based on religon on why gay people should not be allowed to get married. If you dont want to call it marriage to make consevatives happy fine call it a "civil-union" and just give them the same rights, privleges, ect as married couples.

The sad thing is that usually those who sin don't see their sin as sin and make a choice to not think of it as sin. And no, I don't have any stats for you, but the percentage is insanely high. My only evidence is the above comments.

Being homosexual, like so many of the other "problems" with people in my opinion is merely a way to "be different" or "be noticed." What does this boil down to? Attention. People are gay, goth, or part of any form of an individual ideology because they want attention; they want people to notice them especially for their individuality. It is easy for many liberals to give a scientifically originated excuse for this personal behaviour, hense our ongoing war against eachother. I am not biased against these people, nor am I supportive of their "marriage." However, even though I am conservative, if they arn't hurting anything (except for the minds of our youth and future leaders, the cleanliness of America, and the snowballing effect of "individuality" in society) yeah, let's let everyone just be "themselves" (in reality being the food for what they want), and possibly let Americans join terrorism groups and help all of our Al Queda friends blow us up. Yeah, lets start by letting gay couples wed...and then see what we'll allow next.

Everybody should be eliminated except me. Why? Because they're different from me. They don't live like I live, they don't look like me, they don't smell like me, they don't believe what I believe, they don't know what I know. The world would be better off without anybody........except me.

I am not implying that being individual is a BAD thing. However, if we let people just "be themselves" to an extent that is considered by many Americans obscene or "wrong", our youth will get the message that being like this is okay. It's great to have your own personal style and beliefs; I am a strong supporter of this. I know that people should be themselves, but it can only get worse if the liberals just allow more and more of this "weird" individuality continue. I mean, I know that there is probably a very slim chance that gay people are going to do any physical harm to us, but what are they doing to our childerns' minds? Where will we be 10 years from now if this continues? Twenty years? I just don't want to live in a world full of people who are traitorous against America and doing harm to their own country. I don't want to see two guys making out everywhere I go. And I don't want my children to grow up with this, thinking that this tainted society is okay. Hey, it's bad enough already...let's keep it from getting worse.

Your comments edwin" "The sad thing is that usually those who sin don't see their sin as sin and make a choice to not think of it as sin. And no, I don't have any stats for you, but the percentage is insanely high. My only evidence is the above comments".......if we are going to talk about religeon lets start with 2 old cliche christian sayings: "judge not less thee be judged thyself" or maybe "let he without sin cast the first stone" point being:let GOD do his job and judge people, dont try and do it for him! What is and is not sin is for your God, Allah, Jahovah, or whomever, whatever or if anything you believe in to decide. If People did a better job at accepting the fact everyone has thier own belief structure, alot of the problems we have would be fixed. Example: Hitler wanted everyone to think and act one way, I dont have to continue on that one. And while we are at it the "...and the snowballing effect of "individuality" in society" by Aurora ,I mean come on. I hope you are being sacrcastic here that individualism is a bad thing. Do you want us to institue the Thought Police like in George Orwells 1984?

jason youre totally right. Aurora, if your refuse to raise your children, then they will be manipulated by whatever perverted forces are out there, be it homosexuals, or cults, or democrats, or republicans! We are turning into a country of lazy parents unable to raise there own kids and blaming everyone for it. Anyways, older brother effect, what a joke, i refuse to care about what people think about religion, homosexuality, or any concept so impossible to grasp with any sort of facts. God will judge, homosexual sin is the same as any other sin. Homosexuality has not been proven to be genetic, but with 'science' calling fat-lards, genetically obese, its only a matter of time.

Boy there's a lot of hate in this country !

I second that. It's a shame life spans are increasing, now that I think of it. Helps keep bad opinions in circulation longer.

I find this humerous. Such strong accusations! But ok, here's the truth. One, I don't have children, (and I am WAY too young to have any). Two, I'm a rebel...therefore, I have nothing against individuality. But this is where morality comes in. Personally, I don't want my FUTURE children asking: "Hey mommy...is that a lady-man?", while they see two guys sucking face on the side-walk. Unfortunatly, I know this will happen, as bad as society is now. Ten years from now, I don't even want to know what I--or my children are going to witness on the street. If you're gay, I'm not against you, I'm not against anyone! I'm going to raise my children with CLEAN ideologies, if you will, that are not based on the dictations of Hollywood and Amsterdam, TOM. And Edwin...don't drag God into this, this is our OWN FAULT. I am just opposed to this world having an even more bizzare culture than the current one...is there an echo in here? That's fine...I stand alone. Call me individual.

I like your opinion Aurora. In fact, I like and respect everyones opinion. Because they aren't mine. That's the joy of it. For every thought or idea, for every action or reaction, for every individual or collective, there will always be more than one opinion. You can't be an individual without someone being different from you. That's the point. Opinions are what make up intelligent beings. Fish swim together, birds flock together, you'll never see them fight for an opinion, only for survival. The fact that humans have opinions is amazing. That's the driving force to make things better. Your opinion ultimate leads you to want something to be better. That is also the opinion of every other individual. Their opinions are meant to make their lifes better in some form or another. Maybe their opinion is meant to make someone else's life better.

For the matter of this research suggesting that with the more siblings an individual has the likelyhood of them being homosexual will increase. Does that mean you are? Obviously not. Someone had an opinion about this and wanted to see what they could find out. Hypothesis is connected to the words Idea and Belief in a thesaurus, so as a responsible human being they were curious to see if their opinion was logical as well.

This is something I will forever be grateful for. That I live in a country that allows me the freedom of my own opinion. I'm also glad that I don't try to make my opinion someone else's as well. ;)

I had no wish of being a missionary of my own opinion. I was merely defending myself against the above "accusations." However, I am glad that you value mine--and everyone else's opinion as well. I must also compliment you on your intelligent way with words. Personally, I think that this is just another excuse of the liberal party to morally permit homosexuality in society...just like the movie "Brokeback Mountain", (which I think might have did more harm than good on their part). But as you said, there will always be different opinions in the world, and my words on this forum I know, are not going to change that...they are useless and wasteful...just as the "no more war" protesting will not change Al Queda's hatrid for all heathons. But then again...what's the point of arguing our opinions if nothing but confrontation will arise from it? Even beyond my opinion, your opinion, liberal opinion, conservative opinion; why do we spread them around with such passion and delibaration, only for it to result in more confusion than we already have? Personally, I am ashamed of my own self for wasting my time on dictations of MY opinion on this forum...where does this get us? Nowhere...just deeper into the politically sea of conflict, where nothing will get resolved. Must we sit at our computers like lazy elderly polotitions, wasting our lives away? We should DO something about what we think, instead of harming ourselves...do you see the circle? I must confess of hypocritism myself...but does anyone agree with me?

Hmm.. The only thing I can hope for is that we continue to have our opinions. And when the world has settled down we can express them without the current prejudice, then we've done something great. Of course one thing I didn't mention is compromise. So often we see someone who doesn't compromise (this doesn't mean give up their values or beliefs) and the world is hindered and is sets back. Wars are started because someone didn't allow another's opinion and instead of compromise they decided to eradicate it. If you haven't noticed already, we've taken a step forward. We're opinionated and debating our points together, but without opression or closed minds. Logically wars are the opposite of what they try to acheive. Peace is so often associated with the need to fight for it. Honestly, my opinion stands that the world is blind to the fact that other people can be different, think different, say different things. If anything, by beening able to say what's been on my mind for a while now I've been able realize that if at least 10 people can hope for the same thing, then the world isn't doomed. Hopefully there are 10 more people for those 10 that are like minded and hopeful, and so on.

Aurora, I appreciate the point of view you've presented. I'd agree that there's a lot of negative effect for things like "Brokeback Mountain" and public displays of affection that may be out of place. But you'd also need to say the same thing about heterosexuals. As for the circle, no better way to end it then to keep a clear head and offer a compromise. I hate to say it, but have you seen Star Trek? A lot of those episodes ended with resolution through compromise. I may never become a real politician that has any influence, but I know where I stand and I'm open to letting other's stand with me, near me, or against me. I love the old saying. "God grant me the serentity to accept the things I can't change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." A lot of people are lacking some part of that and it shows.

I agree with you, Julto. I see that compromise is a beautiful thing...it has the power to skirt war and conflict, build friendships, and general relations between any two or more human parties. I wish that both Japan and the U.S. would have compromised before the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. But unfortunately at the time, the bombing was our best option, as more of our American soldiers were predicted to die in the war had we waged war traditionally, and moved into Japan. It wasn't something that anyone wanted to do...but we had to. And even today, there are emotional scars on the people of both sides. I agree with you to the fullest extent that if we all compromised, then our world would be a much better place for everyone. It just seems to me in a world full of such robust hatred, that compromise is now a utopian idea in the political world. I do not wish it to be this way, and unfortunately, we cannot compromise with Al Queda or North Korea. No matter what, some people just hate Americans, infandels, or everyone, because that's just how they are...evil, in my opinion. I have enjoyed "debating" with you, you are obviously a very intelligent person, which sometimes made me feel inadequate for discussion with you. Your entries left me wanting to just enter "you win" into the forum. Thankyou for being patient with me...I'm probably the youngest one here. I must ask you: are you a teacher? Whoever you are, I respect your intelligence, and wish you nothing but success in your future endeavors.

Oh my! I'm flattered. I don't want to 'win' against you. I was just voicing my thoughts in a logical way. If anything the only thing I'm trying to achieve is that there is a different way to think of things. There have been big mistakes in the past. Like you said, the atomic bomb having been used is a good example. I can't say it could have been avoided, another aspect of the human condition is backlash. A reaction like that put America in a position of dominance that may have frightend the world and caused only more animosity.

I guess you are right for that. If you want someone to listen to compromise, then you'll need them to see you as an equal or on an equal playing field.

I, myself, am going to show tolerance through intolerance* and compromise through understanding. I don't expect other's to jump in and follow me. I just hope the human condition can be influenced for good.

* Having the courage to change what I can. Hint Hint.

Last but not least, don't feel inadequate to anyone, least of all me. I'm still trying to break down THAT unhealthy human condition in myself to think I'm not as good as I acutally could be.

I'd like to be a teacher someday. I've got a ways to go. I'm only 23.

I'd like to talk more.
jultozparadox at yahoo dot com

Julto, I must confess that I am but a young, opinionated high school girl. I know, I seems awkward, I just find it much more interesting to engage in politics than practice cheerleading. (: I guess I'm just kind of the only nerd girl within my peers...someday I hope to accomplish great things in the med/science field. I hope that I have been good practice for your future teaching career. Let me guess...poloitical Science? But despite the awkwardness, I must say that you are very persuasive in influencing others with your opinion, and again, out of all the teachers I've ever had, you seem to me the most intelligent one by far (from what I can tell from your writing anyway). To tell the truth, I have actually learned a lot from you, and for that I must thank you again. Well, I have to do my A.P. summer homework. :P Thanks again for giving me more faith in America's educators.

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Vanity is not a valid reason for cosmetic plastic surgery

Life begins at conception, at birth

I'm also a gay only child, and my grandmother can't account for it, not on the maternal side, anyway - she had 5 daughters, and all of their children were also daughters except me and one cousin.

@ Conservatives/Religious extremists/Whatever you are:
Get over it, please. Even if it's not biological, why exactly do you care in the slightest? We don't campaign against illegalising marriage between conservatives (there's got to be one voice of reason in a child's upbringing, right?), so please just mind your own business and stop sticking your nose in where its neither needed nor welcome. It's lovely that you have your little beliefs (what those beliefs are isn't so lovely), but please stop thrusting them at other people and expecting them to care.
Thanks!

And at that Aurora person earlier on - well, that's great. But what if I don't want to explain to my children (not that I'll ever adopt one) that some men like kissing women, because I want to bring them up with "clean" ideologies? The problem is your definition of "clean". That's an abstract label, not one that you chose, but one that's been imposed on you by your upbringing. It's not like calling an apple an apple, which is objective - it's like saying one apple tastes better than another, and then claiming that that's objective. Apples come in many different flavours, and different people like different ones. Just because you prefer one type of apple, doesn't make it the best. i.e., it is subjective. Your definition of "clean" is an example of a subjective idea, and it could be entirely different to someone else's (e.g. mine - though I don't think of ideologies in terms of "clean" and "dirty", those concepts seem to me fallacious and inspired by ignorance; but rather in terms of how they enhance the positive experience of a consciousness with varied experience). It's important to consider that your outlook is not the only one which exists, and to understand that you need to face things that you might not like, and others aren't going to make concessions for you unless you make concessions for them.

And my above post - "campaign against" should be "campaign for".

thank you

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